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Post by stevieg8 Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:09 pm

An article making the rounds on FB now:

November 27, 2012
What I Saw During Operation Pillar of Defense
By Nira Lee
Four years ago, watching the coverage of Operation Cast Lead from the comfort of my dorm, I was a conflicted college student. As supportive as I was of Israel, I still found it painful any time I heard about civilian casualties in Gaza. What I saw portrayed in the media didn't add up: on the one hand I knew that the IDF was engaged in careful efforts to prevent civilian casualties, despite Hamas's strategy of fighting from amongst its own civilian population. Yet the media made it seem like the IDF was actively targeting civilians.

Back then, I understood Israel's efforts at protecting civilians as a something akin to a talking point -- I had no personal involvement in the conflict. Yet I had no idea how true it is until I myself participated in last week's Operation "Pillar of Defense" as an officer in the IDF.

When I moved to Israel and enlisted, I joined a unit called the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), which is devoted to civilian and humanitarian issues.

As an International Liaison Officer in the Gaza office, my job primarily entails coordinating transfers of goods, aid, and delegations into Gaza. I work closely with representatives of the international community, and although our perspectives may differ, we maintain relationships of mutual respect born of a common goal; I am here to help them succeed in their work improving the quality of life in Gaza.

While the day-to-day work is challenging in Gaza, I learned over the past ten days that the true test comes with crisis. At exactly the point where most militaries would use the heat of war to throw out the rulebook, we worked harder than ever to provide assistance wherever and whenever possible.

The eight days of Operation "Pillar of Defense" have been some of the hardest I have ever known physically and emotionally. The college student from Arizona would never have thought it possible to work 20 hours a day, fueled only by adrenaline and longing for just an hour of sleep on a shelter floor -- wearing the same filthy uniform because changing, much less showering, wouldn't allow me to get to a shelter in time when the next rocket barrage hit. And no, wearing the green uniform does not mean that you aren't afraid when the sirens sound.

Had you told me four years ago that there were IDF officers who stayed up all night under a hail of rockets, brainstorming ways to import medical supplies and food to the people of Gaza, I am not sure I would have believed you. But I can tell you it is true because I did it every night.

What amazed me the most was the singular sense of purpose that drove everyone from the base commander to the lowest ranking soldier. We were all focused completely on our mission: to help our forces accomplish their goals without causing unnecessary harm to civilian lives or infrastructure.

It is harder to explain the emotional roller-coaster -- how proud and relieved I felt every time a truck I coordinated entered Gaza, and how enraging it was when we had to shut down the crossing into Gaza after Hamas repeatedly targeted it. Or how invigorating it was help evacuate two injured Palestinians from the border area, only to be informed minutes later that a terrorist had detonated a bomb on a bus near my apartment in Tel Aviv.

So after all that I see and do, nothing frustrates me more than the numbers game that is played in the media. The world talks about "disproportionate" numbers of casualties as the measure of what is right and wrong -- as if not enough Israelis were killed by Hamas for the IDF to have the right to protect its own civilians from endless rocket attacks.

In my position, I see the surgical airstrikes, and spend many hours with the UN, ICRC, and NGO officers reviewing maps to help identify, and avoid, striking civilian sites. One of our pilots who saw a rocket aimed at Israel aborted his mission when he saw children nearby -- putting his own civilians at risk to save Gazans. At the end of the day, what these "disproportionate numbers" show is how we in Israel protect our children with elaborate shelters and missile defense systems, whereas the terror groups in Gaza hide behind theirs, using them as human shields in order to win a cynical media war.

What's really behind the headlines and that picture on the front page? Every day, I coordinate goods with a young Gazan woman who works for an international aid organization. Last month we forged a bond when we had to run for cover together when Hamas targeted Kerem Shalom Crossing -- attacking the very aid provided to its own people. During the eight days of Operation "Pillar of Defense", not one passed without a phone call, just to check in. "Are you ok?" I would ask. "I heard they fired at your base. Please stay safe", she would reply. And every night I made her promise to call me if she needed anything. These are the things that the media fails to show the world, just as they underplay how Hamas deliberately endangers civilians on both sides of the border -- by firing indiscriminately at Israel from Gaza neighborhoods.

Maybe stories such as these make for less exciting headlines, but if they received more attention there would perhaps be more moral clarity, and thus more peace in the Middle East.

2nd Lt. Nira Lee is an Arizona native. She moved to Israel in 2010 and has been serving in the IDF for the past two years. She works as a liaison officer to international organizations out of the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration

Take it however you will, since she doesn't provide sources for her claims other than her firsthand experience and is a member of the IDF. I know that will make a lot of you discount anything this says, but for others, maybe it'll give a more rounded view of things.

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Post by Casciavit Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:55 am

UN recognizes Palestine as non-member observer state
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Post by FennecFox7 Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:21 pm

ok fine stevieg. gaza is just as much to blame as isreal Rolling Eyes while the isrealis party and drink and have luxurious lives, the Palestinians suffer because of hunger and malnutrition.


To add to that, it isn't even isreals land at all! If you're gonna argue that then you have serious issues and in fact do not know anything about the situation.

But no! It's fine, gaza is just as much to blame. I agree TOTALLY Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Calling anti semetic is just ignorant. I don't give a fk if someones isreali. Maybe I should change my flag from algeria so you wouldn't assume the worst from an arab Rolling Eyes
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:46 am

Giggity5313 wrote:powerful in the western world, particularly in the us. Guess who owns NY times?

That's actually the ONLY major news outlet owned by a jewish family (that I know of).

Guess who owns FOX news?
Rupert Murdoch;
an Australian born American media tycoon of Christian faith, who is, himself, a bit of an antisemite.

What's your point, mate? :X
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:12 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:ok fine stevieg. gaza is just as much to blame as isreal Rolling Eyes while the isrealis party and drink and have luxurious lives, the Palestinians suffer because of hunger and malnutrition.


To add to that, it isn't even isreals land at all! If you're gonna argue that then you have serious issues and in fact do not know anything about the situation.

But no! It's fine, gaza is just as much to blame. I agree TOTALLY Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Calling anti semetic is just ignorant. I don't give a fk if someones isreali. Maybe I should change my flag from algeria so you wouldn't assume the worst from an arab Rolling Eyes

this is what we call a fallacy of conclusion, also known in latin as "post hoc ergo propter hoc." it means that just because something follows does not mean it was caused. i specifically detailed in my posts numerous reasons why this fact exists ASIDE from the israeli military excursions, with quotes and sources to support it. if you're going to ignore those, and continue arguing "the palestinians have it worse, therefore the israelis are the aggressor," at least have the decency to stop claiming you have logic on your side.

every single report from the time, ranging from outsider, white/westerner visitors like mark twain, to the ottoman record takers themselves, say that this region was largely uninhabited before 1900. there were jewish settlements at the so-called four holy cities, and a large arab contingent at the port town of yafo. the rest of the population of the area were arabs of nomadic backgrounds that would pass through on trading routes. the population that exists there currently began its influx in the early 1900s, consisting of european jews escaping persecution and arabs from nearby areas. together, both groups revitalized the land from the uninhabitable marsh and desert it had been, built up infrastructure, and laid the foundations for modern cities. the jewish immigrants bought their land from the ottomans and possessed it legally by anyone's definitions. the state of israel itself was later established in multiple ways: by politics (through the un decree), through conquest (just like every other state ever), and by purchase. accordingly, israel has as much claim to its sovereign territory as any other state that has ever existed in the world. specific instances of arab individuals losing land and property during the wars absolutely exist, and should be considered for redress in any negotiations that occur - and in fact have been. the 2001 agreement that arafat rejected explicitly included large sums of money for the descendants of displaced palestinians. nuances absolutely exist and the palestinians absolutely have claims to make, but your failure to understand that there are two sides to the conflict - and to reject the other side as "not knowing anything about the situation" instead of ACTUALLY RESPONDING TO THE POINTS I MAKE is really getting frustrating. please god, actually have a conversation instead of pulling the same "you don't nkow anything" card without any facts to back it up.

great job refuting my points

i explicitly said, over and over and over again, that i don't consider anti-zionism to be anti-semitism, and that furthermore, it bothers me to know end when pro-israel people do that, because it is nothing but detrimental. my claims of anti-semitism were in response to a very specific statement of yours, which was not only disproven but was also called discriminatory by everyone else in this thread - including the people who agree with you. maybe you should start looking inward instead of claiming i - and everyone else in this thread - are ignorant.

see early point and the whole thing about "responding to a statement and not the person." if you really have that hard of a time understanding what i'm talking about, do some research on basic rhetoric/logic, and maybe on the conflict itself too, then come back and talk.

in summary, if you can't respond to my actual points, please stop responding at all. your ad hominem attacks and claims of "you know nothing" without any support are getting old.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:20 pm

And while we're at it, maybe you should give this a read: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html?_r=0

Direct quotes to look at from the man himself:
"The state will come from resistance, not negotiation, Liberation first, then statehood."

"Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land."

"We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take, We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem."

Notice also the facts that the event commemorated not the founding of Hamas, but the anniversary of their first attack against Israel, and that Hamas leadership felt that the cease-fire was not a step forward, but a "military victory." Feel free to check out the full text of the speech too, he didn't pull any punches.

And people wonder why Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization :facepalm:. Although maybe we should celebrate their honesty - at least they're open that they seek complete annihilation of Israel, unlike the Israelis, who cover their tracks by withdrawing from land, forcibly removing their citizens, and maintaining a power and water supply instead of just shutting off the grid to let them starve to death. :facepalm:
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Post by RealGunner Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:45 pm

Although maybe we should celebrate their honesty - at least they're open that they seek complete annihilation of Israel, unlike the Israelis, who cover their tracks by withdrawing from land, forcibly removing their citizens, and maintaining a power and water supply instead of just shutting off the grid to let them starve to death

lol what ?

You do know that the Israeli newspaper called out for a Genocide against Palestine right ?

And when did Israel ever withdraw from Palestinian land ?

About the water statement. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/22/f-palestinian-springs-water.html
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:58 pm

@RealGunner wrote:
Although maybe we should celebrate their honesty - at least they're open that they seek complete annihilation of Israel, unlike the Israelis, who cover their tracks by withdrawing from land, forcibly removing their citizens, and maintaining a power and water supply instead of just shutting off the grid to let them starve to death

lol what ?

You do know that the Israeli newspaper called out for a Genocide against Palestine right ?

And when did Israel ever withdraw from Palestinian land ?

About the water statement. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/22/f-palestinian-springs-water.html

Newspaper /=/ head of government.

When did Israel withdraw from Palestinian land? Gaza 2006? Or are we legit forgetting about that?
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Post by RealGunner Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:59 pm

Gaza - Page 8 665806_483817344974231_108539109_o
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:00 pm

Rg, my point - as always - was not to say Israel is perfect or has done everything right. There are lots of problems with the supply of goods into Gaza right now - caused by Israel - and I would have to be crazy to deny that. My point is simply that one side's actions and statements have been geared towards militarism and war, while the other side's have been conflicted. to find similar peacefully oriented actions from palestinians, you have to look at fatah. hamas has no examples of wanting peace, either in their rhetoric or in the actions they do, and that is significant.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:04 pm


I'd love to see population numbers for the areas in the first picture. I think you'd be pretty shocked to discover that most of the supposed "Palestinian land" was entirely uninhabited. Another fact the picture fails to acknowledge is that the difference between 1947 and 1967 was due to military conflicts initiated by arab states and the Palestinian government. Israel unequivocally accepted the UN mandate, while war was declared against them. The land they took was in the subsequent war and a second war, also not initiated by Israel, in 1967. If you want to say it's because the UN mandate was unfair, fine - that means the aggression was justified, though, not that Israel was acting aggressively.

If you only look at numbers and statistics and try to draw conclusions from them without looking at the "why," you're going to get a skewed picture of things.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:18 pm

Look, I understand that I'm coming off as very one sided in these posts. I'm trying to bring a little nuance into a conversation that was very heavily biased towards one end, because this is a topic that really doesn't HAVE a right answer. There have been so many screwups on both sides that playing the blame game does nothing but hurt everyone. Hamas - and their supporters - need to stop acting like launching rockets at civilian areas in a sovereign nation is ok because it hasn't killed that many people yet. But Israel needs to stop bringing its full military might against a group of under-armed rebels, and instead focus its political strength on achieving peace with abbas before that window closes. i really dislike netanyahu and feel that he has been profoundly detrimental to the peace process, and would like to see him out of office before abbas is assassinated or dies of old age, or is even just voted out by people rightfully unhappy that progress hasn't been seen.

my response to the people in this thread is based on the inordinate amount of posts i've seen attempting to defend the actions of a terrorist organization, though. the number of deaths on the palestinian side is absolutely a cause for concern with me for the israeli leadership, but the difference between the death counts does not tell us anything about intentionality - that's just basic principles of logic. i find it shocking that people can read speeches like meshal's and still claim any moral high ground. keep in mind that i'm NOT implying israel has moral superiority with this statement.

all these arguments do nothing but slow down the peace process by entrenching people on both sides. deaths have occurred, people have lost loved ones on both sides - and no, not just soldiers for the israelis, as i witnessed firsthand in 2001-2002 - and trying to go back 50, 60, 100 years to decide who started everything does NOTHING to fix the situation. It's not a black and white issue, so just as I should try and pay attention to why Palestinians are angry, and what the Israelis need to do better (and there's a LOT of it, trust me), you guys should try and look at the opposite side too. it's not just populated with crazy fanatics who are cheering for civilian deaths; there are real, logical reasons to be pro-israel, just as there are to be pro-palestinian.
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Post by Le Samourai Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:57 pm

Every single report from the time, ranging from outsider, white/westerner visitors like mark twain, to the ottoman record takers themselves, say that this region was largely uninhabited before 1900.

There were jewish settlements at the so-called four holy cities, and a large arab contingent at the port town of yafo. the rest of the population of the area were arabs of nomadic backgrounds that would pass through on trading routes. the population that exists there currently began its influx in the early 1900s, consisting of european jews escaping persecution and arabs from nearby areas.

Together, both groups revitalized the land from the uninhabitable marsh and desert it had been, built up infrastructure, and laid the foundations for modern cities. the jewish immigrants bought their land from the ottomans and possessed it legally by anyone's definitions.

The state of israel itself was later established in multiple ways: by politics (through the un decree), through conquest (just like every other state ever), and by purchase. accordingly, israel has as much claim to its sovereign territory as any other state that has ever existed in the world. specific instances of arab individuals losing land and property during the wars absolutely exist, and should be considered for redress in any negotiations that occur - and in fact have been.

The 2001 agreement that Arafat rejected explicitly included large sums of money for the descendants of displaced palestinians.

The origins of the claims made by both sides lay in the presence of Jews or Arabs in the region. However, the fact that the region was conquered and re-conquered and occupied by Islamic forces for about 1300 years before the Ottomans were conquered by the British during the first world war. There is tangible evidence for that.

On the other hand the strongest claims of a dominant Jewish presence in the area before that time period rests in religious mythology

The Zionist movement almost exclusively fulled Jewish settlement of Palestine. And even with the mass migration of Russian Jews and other Eastern Europeans (the original targets of the Zionist movement), only 10 % of the Palestinian population was Jewish at the start of the first world war.

So I think it's safe to say that from a purely historical standpoint, Arab claims to the land enjoys much greater legitimacy.

The funny thing is that at the end of the first World War the Arabs were supposed to be given independence in return for assisting the British in conquering the Turks. Instead they were made protectorates preparing for independence.

In the inter-war under British mandate the Jewish population grew from 10% to 33 % due to further mass migration. Why was this allowed? this was at the expense and displacement of inhabitants who were supposed to be preparing for independence.


All the wars which followed are an absolute joke to me. Not only were they in the post world-war 2 period where. The British played proxy to Jewish settlement and encouraged nationalist tribalism and Partisanship in the area and then the UN legitimized some random State made possible through Migration that should never have been possible in the first place.

Obviously Arab leagues were always going to lose. They had been progressively weakened and displaced while Israel commanded the support of the UN.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:35 pm

the first half of your post is completely accurate, but i'm uncertain as to how it has bearing on the legitimacy of Israel. It's a standard that literally no other country has ever been held to. because the land was possessed by arabs - for a very long period of time, absolutely - in history, the political and military events of the last hundred years should be ignored? i've never heard this argument about other countries, many of which these claims would be more easily supported (look at the USA, for example). i'm not saying military conquest is right, simply that it's what we have now, and arguing over legitimacy - especially from a position with no precedent in history - simply undermines the peace process.

also, i'm not sure what your last two paragraphs mean. israel responded to the '48, '67 and '73 attacks by itself... there were no other military forces, from the un or the us on their side. what do you mean the arab leagues were always going to lose? and how does the fact that they're defeat was inevitable excuse the fact that they initiated all three wars? i'm not sure what your point is.
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Post by Il Diavolo Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:19 am

Most of the people agree on the fact that war does not get us anywhere closer to a solution and peaceful negotiations are the way to go. Now IMO, the first step towards peace would be to let the Palestinians have their own state, as there is no way they are going to give up all of their land to Israel and live happily in Israel, neither would the Israeli's accept them in their country.

However, when this motion is proposed in the UN, the whole world in on one side and Israel, USA and a few others are on one side e.g. the last time, it was the whole world against Israel, USA, Canada and Micronesia. And since USA has the power of veto, it does not matter what the rest of the world says, if they're not happy, it's not gonna happen.
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Post by Le Samourai Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:19 am

@stevieg8 wrote:the first half of your post is completely accurate, but i'm uncertain as to how it has bearing on the legitimacy of Israel. It's a standard that literally no other country has ever been held to. because the land was possessed by arabs - for a very long period of time, absolutely - in history, the political and military events of the last hundred years should be ignored? i've never heard this argument about other countries, many of which these claims would be more easily supported (look at the USA, for example). i'm not saying military conquest is right, simply that it's what we have now, and arguing over legitimacy - especially from a position with no precedent in history - simply undermines the peace process.

also, i'm not sure what your last two paragraphs mean. israel responded to the '48, '67 and '73 attacks by itself... there were no other military forces, from the un or the us on their side. what do you mean the arab leagues were always going to lose? and how does the fact that they're defeat was inevitable excuse the fact that they initiated all three wars? i'm not sure what your point is.

They initiated these wars to reclaim land they had been progressively unfairly displaced from. Their loss was inevitable because Arabs had been progressively weakened through a displacement that should never have occurred in the first place.

The political and military (and demographic) events over the last 100 should not be ignored. The Arab were supposed to be given independence in 1917, instead the British decided to attempt to exploit the state as that was the predominating colonial ideology.

So they made them a protectorate.

What did they protect? You think Arab populations encouraged the Zionist migrations and conquest ? For some reason you had a situation where migrants were being allowed to expand outwards at the expense of the dominant local population.

There's a difference between winning something and it being given to you. After 1300 years of warfare and expulsion, it's ridiculous that Jews were able to , migrate to, occupy set up the infrastructure and expel Arabs...they didn't fight for the land they received.

The British would have to be complete idiots to recognize that this was going to spark warfare. The First World War was started by ethnic nationalism in the Balkans. So they went ahead and allowed a worse situation to develop in a region they were supposed to protect - with little to no regulation.

The US situation is different. The destruction of Indian tribes throughout the Americas is a tragedy within itself but at least it was in a time period where it was understandable to see such and occurrence. At the vitual genocide of the Indians evolved out of disease the Europeans themselves had little control over. So you can see why I understand Continentalism and Manifest Destiny a little better than the Jewish state.
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Post by Baraa Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:11 pm

I'm a Palestine and I find this whole argument disgraceful, very disgraceful.

My Friend's family was terminated , all of them, all the family, did they have anything to do with Hamas? NO

Were they terrorists? NO

I don't get the people who defends Israel actions , I'm a Muslm and people always have this WRONG reflection that we hate every non-Muslim, that we hate all the Jews, and that's all because of what the European and the American media...

No, we respect Jews, up until now we have absolutely no problem with Jews,, our problem is with Israel, there are even Jewish people who are against Israel.
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:08 am

@Baraa wrote:I'm a Palestine and I find this whole argument disgraceful, very disgraceful.

My Friend's family was terminated , all of them, all the family, did they have anything to do with Hamas? NO

Were they terrorists? NO

I don't get the people who defends Israel actions , I'm a Muslm and people always have this WRONG reflection that we hate every non-Muslim, that we hate all the Jews, and that's all because of what the European and the American media...

No, we respect Jews, up until now we have absolutely no problem with Jews,, our problem is with Israel, there are even Jewish people who are against Israel.
This..
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Post by Mamad Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:13 am

Most of people know it's Israel's fault Baraa. they just don't want to admit it.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:02 pm

Muslims and Jews: a historical perspective

Once upon a time, a widely circulated Jewish document described Islam as "an act of God's Mercy".

Also, Jews in the near East, north Africa and Spain threw their support behind advancing Muslim Arab armies.

No, these aren't fairy tales or propaganda. The relationship between Muslims and Jews really was that cooperative and marked by peaceful coexistence.

Just ask Khalid Siddiqi of the Islamic Education and Information Center in San Jose, California where he also teaches Islamic Studies and Arabic at Chabot College and Ohlone College.

Siddiqi notes that the first quote above is from S. D. Goitein's book Jews and Arabs. The second is from Merlin Swartz's 'The Position of Jews in Arab lands following the rise of Islam' (reprinted from The Muslim World. Hartford Seminary Foundation LXI1970).

Swartz also says the Muslim Arab conquest marked the dawn of a new era. Those forces that had led to the progressive isolation and disruption of Jewish life were not only checked they were dramatically reversed.

In an interview with Sound Vision, Siddiqi gave numerous examples of Jews flourishing under Muslim rule in places like Spain, Morocco, North African in general and various parts of the Middle East.

Siddiqi points out that Islam as a religion has given specific guidelines for the followers of Islam to base their relationship with any non-Muslim. These include People of Scripture, like the Jews, people who belong to other religions, and even atheists. Non-Muslims must be treated on the basis of Birr (kindness) and Qist (justice), as referred to Surah 60 verse 8 of the Quran.

It started at the time of the Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him)

The peaceful coexistence of Muslims and Jews began at the time of the Prophet.

Siddiqi notes that the Jews welcomed the Prophet when he arrived in Madinah at the time of Hijrah (migration), along with the rest of the city's inhabitants.

But the Prophet had begun the step towards good relations with Jewish and other communities in Madinah even before getting there.

After receiving an invitation to Madinah from one of the city's tribes that had accepted Islam, the Prophet signed treaties with the city's Jewish, Christian and polytheist tribes before he arrived there.

These treaties clearly laid out responsibilities of each of the parties. It was based on these that the Prophet established the Mithaq al Madinah, the constitution of Madinah.

Siddiqi says this was the first constitution of the world and one of the greatest political documents ever prepared by any human being. It is the oldest surviving constitution of any state.

Under this constitution, any Jew who followed the Muslims was entitled to their assistance and the same rights as anyone of them without any injustice or partisanship.

It said the Jews are an Ummah (community of believers) alongside the Muslims. The Jews have their religion and the Muslims theirs. As well, it noted that each will assist one another against any violation of this covenant.

Jews during the Muslim era


Despite this early breach of contract, there are still numerous examples from Muslim history of Muslim-Jewish cooperation and coexistence.

Siddiqi gave examples of how Muslim Spain, which was a "golden era" of creativity and advancement for Muslims was also one for Jews.

While Europe was in its Dark Ages and Jews were reviled there, Muslims in Spain during the same period worked side by side with Jews in developing literature, science and art.

Together, they translated classical Greek texts into Arabic. This task later helped Europe move out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance.

Jews flourished under Muslim rule in Egypt as well, where they achieved very high positions in government.

Siddiqi quotes some lines from an Arab poet of that time, to illustrate: 'Today the Jews have reached the summit of their hopes and have become aristocrats. Power and riches have they and from them councilors and princes are chosen'.

Today

So what happened?

Although not the only cause, a large part of the deterioration in Muslim-Jewish relations comes from the emergence of Zionism, the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland by Zionist Jews and British colonizers, as well as their continuing oppression.

Siddiqi says, "while this reaction results in anti-Jewish feeling it must be seen in its proper historical context. It must be remembered that anti-Jewish sentiments in so far as it is to be found in the contemporary Arab world is strictly a modern phenomenon and one that runs counter to the time honored Islamic tradition of fraternity and tolerance.

"The very widespread popular notion that present day Arab-Jewish hostility is but another chapter in a long history of mutual animosity is totally false. If there is one thing the past makes clear it is precisely that Arabs and Jews can live together peacefully and in a mutually beneficial relationship. History also makes it very clear that they are the heirs to the Islamic tradition of openness and tolerance."

The key to reestablishing good relations between Muslims and Jews again is justice, notes Siddiqui. This principle is foreign to neither Islam nor Judaism.

In Islam, standing up for justice, he points out, must be done even if it is against ourselves, our parents, our kin, the rich or the poor. This is clearly mentioned in the Quran (4:135).

Siddiqi points out that the emphasis on justice is also mentioned in Jewish scripture in the prophecies of Michael in chapter three: "Zion shall be redeemed with justice and by those who will come to her with righteousness."

SoundVision
______________________________________________

Something i wanted to write about but found it in a better quality on the net Razz

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Gaza - Page 8 Empty Re: Gaza

Post by Cruijf Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:08 pm

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/report-3-martyrs-and-80-wounded-by-israeli-bullets-and-322-kidnapped-during-december/

And yet if Hamas were to fire a rocket back at this point, they'd be labelled as terrorists violating the ceasefire...

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Post by Cruijf Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:36 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/20133414315434321.html

And to think people not only refuse to acknowledge Israel as an apartheid state, but they go even further to praise and support it.
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