Gaza

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Post by TalkingReckless Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:19 pm

McLewis wrote:Simple question: What would it take to truly resolve this conflict?

I'm not talking about truces, but real compromise and lasting peace in this region.


One state where both Israeli and arabs (Muslims, Christian and Jews) live and not seperated like they are ATM.

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Post by Mamad Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:41 pm

more than 130 killed. Children, Women..... The people who ordered this attacks aren't human. they are animals. the ones who support this killings too.
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Post by zizzle Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:30 pm

a interesting article in Haaretz



Israel's 'right to self-defense' - a tremendous propaganda victory

By supporting Israel's offensive on Gaza, Western leaders have given the Israelis carte blanche to do what they're best at: Wallow in their sense of victimhood and ignore Palestinian suffering.

One of Israel's tremendous propaganda victories is that it has been accepted as a victim of the Palestinians, both in the view of the Israeli public and that of Western leaders who hasten to speak of Israel's right to defend itself. The propaganda is so effective that only the Palestinian rockets at the south of Israel, and now at Tel Aviv, are counted in the round of hostilities. The rockets, or damage to the holiest of holies - a military jeep - are always seen as a starting point, and together with the terrifying siren, as if taken from a World War II movie, build the meta-narrative of the victim entitled to defend itself.

Every day, indeed every moment, this meta-narrative allows Israel to add another link to the chain of dispossession of a nation as old as the state itself, while at the same time managing to hide the fact that one continuous thread runs from the 1948 refusal to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, the early 1950s expulsion of Bedouin from the Negev desert, the current expulsion of Bedouin from the Jordan Valley, ranches for Jews in the Negev, discrimination in budgets in Israel, and shooting at Gazan fishermen to keep them from earning a respectable living. Millions of such continuous threads link 1948 to the present. They are the fabric of life for the Palestinian nation, as divided as it may be in isolated pockets. They are the fabric of life of Palestinian citizens of Israel and of those who live in their lands of exile.

full article : http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/israel-s-right-to-self-defense-a-tremendous-propaganda-victory.premium-1.478913
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Post by free_cat Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:40 pm

What I find curious is how bad are palestinians at aiming. How do they manage to only kill 5 israelis firing 1.000 rockets during 2012?

Or how good are israelians killing palestinians with a similar amount of rockets? hmm

Maybe Palestinians overstate their casualties?

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Post by RealGunner Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:52 pm

lol Israel have some amazing defensive equipment, even better than what USA have.

The Iron Dome managed to stop 95% of the Rockets. 95%!!
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Post by Mamad Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:12 pm

Hamas is just a group with no help at all. its just Iran who helps them to learn how to build rockets. Israel gets it from US. the most dangerous and lethal weapons. and as RG said Israel's defensive system is probably the best in the world. there is no defensive system in Gaza.

btw the number of rockets isn't the same. Israel's is far more.

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:25 pm

RealGunner wrote:lol Israel have some amazing defensive equipment, even better than what USA have.

The Iron Dome managed to stop 95% of the Rockets. 95%!!

Iron dome is by no means a superior system to anything the US has, IIRC many of its components are US made.

Hamas's rockets are more flying pipes with some homemade explosives than modern missiles just used to terrorize and to gain political points.
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Post by guest7 Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:40 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2012/11/21/world/middleeast/21reuters-palestinians-israel-egypt-conference.html?hp&_r=0

Israel and Palestina agree to a truce
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Post by zizzle Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:59 pm

free_cat wrote:What I find curious is how bad are palestinians at aiming. How do they manage to only kill 5 israelis firing 1.000 rockets during 2012?

Or how good are israelians killing palestinians with a similar amount of rockets? hmm

Maybe Palestinians overstate their casualties?



you really need to see these palestinian "rockets". Not to mention that the Iron Dome shot most of them down shortly after they're launched.

here, take a look

Gaza - Page 6 Qassam_7 Gaza - Page 6 Qassam-launch1
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Post by Cruijf Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Legend wrote:
McLewis wrote:Simple question: What would it take to truly resolve this conflict?

I'm not talking about truces, but real compromise and lasting peace in this region.


One state where both Israeli and arabs (Muslims, Christian and Jews) live and not seperated like they are ATM.

This.
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Post by Cruijf Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Dutti wrote:
ACMRox wrote:
Legend wrote:

Dutti, please, calm down, set aside the anger you seem to have against us here who defend Palestine, and watch this video.

On Palestine supposedly breaking cease fires, give me even just one incident where they have attacked Israel unprovoked during an agreed cease fire.

You know, you really are a troll for suddenly coming to your senses.

2008:

No reporter was sure about which side fired first, but, in this case, both sides did violate the ceasefire agreement.

In the article, it's mentioned that Gaza never fully stopped firing rockets entirely during the truce.

It's not the common Palestines that I don't like, it's Hamas. It's always the government that is full of shit. So I don't defend both Israel and Hamas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html?scp=2&sq=Ethan%20Bronner%20December%202008%20gaza&st=cse

From your article:

On Friday, Hamas officially declared in a statement that the ceasefire had expired, saying the truce would not be renewed because Israel was failing to fulfill its “fundamental conditions and obligations.”

I said unprovoked. As in, when did Palestine just decide to start killing innocent Israelis because they were bored, or in the case we have right now, because they wanted to win an election?
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Post by free_cat Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:38 pm

I read that iron dome only stops a third of the rockets launched , not 95%. However, I guess you guys are right that the weapons are much worse in Palestina.

Glad they agreed a cease of fire, but this is the never-ending story of hate all because of the poisonous religion.
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Post by Dutti Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:58 am

ACMRox wrote:
Dutti wrote:
In the article, it's mentioned that Gaza never fully stopped firing rockets entirely during the truce.
On Friday, Hamas officially declared in a statement that the ceasefire had expired, saying the truce would not be renewed because Israel was failing to fulfill its “fundamental conditions and obligations.”

I said unprovoked. As in, when did Palestine just decide to start killing innocent Israelis because they were bored, or in the case we have right now, because they wanted to win an election?

Well then how do you explain the fact that Hamas never entirely stopped firing rockets during "truce"?

The statement was made after Hamas had been firing many times.

Also, check this out:

In other words, the six-month truce that Israel and Hamas, the militant Palestinian leaders of Gaza, agreed to on June 19 is over.

Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.

Right now, there is a new ceasefire, but, given the history of violations and the current situation, I doubt when the next one comes there won't be a full scale war.
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Post by Cruijf Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:32 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/201211238226924973.html

...
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Post by Cruijf Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Gaza - Page 6 481801_522741641071518_1160258328_n
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Post by RED Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:45 pm

Gaza - Page 6 533501_10151357741088436_1697385674_n

Thank you Messi. My appreciation for him has gone up several levels.
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Post by Soul Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:22 am

I heard it was fake RED. Can anyone confirm this?
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Post by TalkingReckless Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:33 am

Soul wrote:I heard it was fake RED. Can anyone confirm this?

Gaza - Page 6 Messivraiephoto
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Post by RED Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:40 pm

smh..damn you photoshop lol. My bad... :facepalm:
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Post by Soul Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:44 pm

TBH even mspaint would have done the job Razz

I was hoping for it to be true too
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Post by RED Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:44 pm

free_cat wrote:I read that iron dome only stops a third of the rockets launched , not 95%. However, I guess you guys are right that the weapons are much worse in Palestina.

Glad they agreed a cease of fire, but this is the never-ending story of hate all because of the poisonous religion.

got nothing to do with religion. It's because those bast*rds are living in a country that doesn't belong to them all because of politics, and have continously attacked and killed Palestinians while acting as the victims.

Before they became Israel, Jews and Muslim lived peacefully together in Palestine.

edit: excuse my language, I get heated up whenever I think about that country.
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Post by stevieg8 Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:02 pm

Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes

By Richard Goldstone, Published: April 1, 2011

We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.

The final report by the U.N. committee of independent experts — chaired by former New York judge Mary McGowan Davis — that followed up on the recommendations of the Goldstone Report has found that “Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct in Gaza” while “the de facto authorities (i.e., Hamas) have not conducted any investigations into the launching of rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.”

Our report found evidence of potential war crimes and “possibly crimes against humanity” by both Israel and Hamas. That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.

The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee’s report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

For example, the most serious attack the Goldstone Report focused on was the killing of some 29 members of the al-Simouni family in their home. The shelling of the home was apparently the consequence of an Israeli commander’s erroneous interpretation of a drone image, and an Israeli officer is under investigation for having ordered the attack. While the length of this investigation is frustrating, it appears that an appropriate process is underway, and I am confident that if the officer is found to have been negligent, Israel will respond accordingly. The purpose of these investigations, as I have always said, is to ensure accountability for improper actions, not to second-guess, with the benefit of hindsight, commanders making difficult battlefield decisions.

While I welcome Israel’s investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel’s inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn’t negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.

Israel’s lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants. The Israeli military’s numbers have turned out to be similar to those recently furnished by Hamas (although Hamas may have reason to inflate the number of its combatants).

As I indicated from the very beginning, I would have welcomed Israel’s cooperation. The purpose of the Goldstone Report was never to prove a foregone conclusion against Israel. I insisted on changing the original mandate adopted by the Human Rights Council, which was skewed against Israel. I have always been clear that Israel, like any other sovereign nation, has the right and obligation to defend itself and its citizens against attacks from abroad and within. Something that has not been recognized often enough is the fact that our report marked the first time illegal acts of terrorism from Hamas were being investigated and condemned by the United Nations. I had hoped that our inquiry into all aspects of the Gaza conflict would begin a new era of evenhandedness at the U.N. Human Rights Council, whose history of bias against Israel cannot be doubted.

Some have charged that the process we followed did not live up to judicial standards. To be clear: Our mission was in no way a judicial or even quasi-judicial proceeding. We did not investigate criminal conduct on the part of any individual in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. We made our recommendations based on the record before us, which unfortunately did not include any evidence provided by the Israeli government. Indeed, our main recommendation was for each party to investigate, transparently and in good faith, the incidents referred to in our report. McGowan Davis has found that Israel has done this to a significant degree; Hamas has done nothing.

Some have suggested that it was absurd to expect Hamas, an organization that has a policy to destroy the state of Israel, to investigate what we said were serious war crimes. It was my hope, even if unrealistic, that Hamas would do so, especially if Israel conducted its own investigations. At minimum I hoped that in the face of a clear finding that its members were committing serious war crimes, Hamas would curtail its attacks. Sadly, that has not been the case. Hundreds more rockets and mortar rounds have been directed at civilian targets in southern Israel. That comparatively few Israelis have been killed by the unlawful rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza in no way minimizes the criminality. The U.N. Human Rights Council should condemn these heinous acts in the strongest terms.

In the end, asking Hamas to investigate may have been a mistaken enterprise. So, too, the Human Rights Council should condemn the inexcusable and cold-blooded recent slaughter of a young Israeli couple and three of their small children in their beds.

I continue to believe in the cause of establishing and applying international law to protracted and deadly conflicts. Our report has led to numerous “lessons learned” and policy changes, including the adoption of new Israel Defense Forces procedures for protecting civilians in cases of urban warfare and limiting the use of white phosphorus in civilian areas. The Palestinian Authority established an independent inquiry into our allegations of human rights abuses — assassinations, torture and illegal detentions — perpetrated by Fatah in the West Bank, especially against members of Hamas. Most of those allegations were confirmed by this inquiry. Regrettably, there has been no effort by Hamas in Gaza to investigate the allegations of its war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

Simply put, the laws of armed conflict apply no less to non-state actors such as Hamas than they do to national armies. Ensuring that non-state actors respect these principles, and are investigated when they fail to do so, is one of the most significant challenges facing the law of armed conflict. Only if all parties to armed conflicts are held to these standards will we be able to protect civilians who, through no choice of their own, are caught up in war.

The writer, a retired justice of the Constitutional Court of South Africa and former chief prosecutor of the U.N. International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, chaired the U.N. fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict.

This, from a man who signed onto a UN condemnation of Israel, and wrote a subsequent report furthering the condemnation of their actions during Operation Cast Lead. I'd love to hear some responses from people, but if all you're going to do is claim that he's biased and uninformed, you can keep quiet; I don't think I'm out of line to say that he's substantially more knowledgeable on this than any of you, and if we're going to start attacking sources, this conversation will get even more impossible than it already is.
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Post by Cruijf Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:59 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
This, from a man who signed onto a UN condemnation of Israel, and wrote a subsequent report furthering the condemnation of their actions during Operation Cast Lead. I'd love to hear some responses from people, but if all you're going to do is claim that he's biased and uninformed, you can keep quiet; I don't think I'm out of line to say that he's substantially more knowledgeable on this than any of you, and if we're going to start attacking sources, this conversation will get even more impossible than it already is.

You can't even bring up the UN to help your case if you want to stay within the realms of sanity stevie...

You're forgetting that the UN started this whole conflict and has never made any actions to try and stop it.

After this, I think its clear the UN can not be trusted in situations like this.

Fire the reporter who tells the horrible crimes of Israel like he sees them, but keep this guy you referenced? Really?
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Post by stevieg8 Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:25 pm

ACMRox wrote:
stevieg8 wrote:
This, from a man who signed onto a UN condemnation of Israel, and wrote a subsequent report furthering the condemnation of their actions during Operation Cast Lead. I'd love to hear some responses from people, but if all you're going to do is claim that he's biased and uninformed, you can keep quiet; I don't think I'm out of line to say that he's substantially more knowledgeable on this than any of you, and if we're going to start attacking sources, this conversation will get even more impossible than it already is.



You can't even bring up the UN to help your case if you want to stay within the realms of sanity stevie...

You're forgetting that the UN started this whole conflict and has never made any actions to try and stop it.

After this, I think its clear the UN can not be trusted in situations like this.

Fire the reporter who tells the horrible crimes of Israel like he sees them, but keep this guy you referenced? Really?

It's odd you reference the UN "starting this whole conflict"... how would you prefer countries be founded? Obviously the ideal is "indigenous people, with no conflict from anyone else in the area, band together to form a democratic government." But considering that has literally never happened, in the history of the world, I'm wondering which of the practical options you'd prefer?

Considering that Israel has been condemned more times than any other country by the UN, I'm also confused how you feel they have "never made any actions to try and stop it" or that "its clear the UN can not be trusted in situations like this." Seems to me that depending on which evidence you look at, you can say the UN is biased in either direction. But I'm confused why you feel the reporter you referenced was "telling it like he sees it," but this guy must somehow be biased.

That being said, I'd REALLY love to see you respond to the content of his statement - which of his points do you disagree with/see as false? I specifically said not to attack the source, because attempting to delegitamize anyone who disagrees with you is a great way to never comprehend the entirety of a situation. If you can't respond to the charges on their own merit, without attacking the source of them, you may need to rethink your system.
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Post by Cruijf Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:38 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
ACMRox wrote:
stevieg8 wrote:
This, from a man who signed onto a UN condemnation of Israel, and wrote a subsequent report furthering the condemnation of their actions during Operation Cast Lead. I'd love to hear some responses from people, but if all you're going to do is claim that he's biased and uninformed, you can keep quiet; I don't think I'm out of line to say that he's substantially more knowledgeable on this than any of you, and if we're going to start attacking sources, this conversation will get even more impossible than it already is.



You can't even bring up the UN to help your case if you want to stay within the realms of sanity stevie...

You're forgetting that the UN started this whole conflict and has never made any actions to try and stop it.

After this, I think its clear the UN can not be trusted in situations like this.

Fire the reporter who tells the horrible crimes of Israel like he sees them, but keep this guy you referenced? Really?

It's odd you reference the UN "starting this whole conflict"... how would you prefer countries be founded? Obviously the ideal is "indigenous people, with no conflict from anyone else in the area, band together to form a democratic government." But considering that has literally never happened, in the history of the world, I'm wondering which of the practical options you'd prefer?

Considering that Israel has been condemned more times than any other country by the UN, I'm also confused how you feel they have "never made any actions to try and stop it" or that "its clear the UN can not be trusted in situations like this." Seems to me that depending on which evidence you look at, you can say the UN is biased in either direction. But I'm confused why you feel the reporter you referenced was "telling it like he sees it," but this guy must somehow be biased.

That being said, I'd REALLY love to see you respond to the content of his statement - which of his points do you disagree with/see as false? I specifically said not to attack the source, because attempting to delegitamize anyone who disagrees with you is a great way to never comprehend the entirety of a situation. If you can't respond to the charges on their own merit, without attacking the source of them, you may need to rethink your system.

You're overcomplicating this.

The investigator says that Israel did not intend to kill civilians, and this was proven during the investigation.

But if no investigation was carried out on the side of Hamas, how does he know that the Israeli casualties weren't similar accidents?

He waved away the 150+ innocent woman and children killed by saying they were accidents and Israel is investigating to prevent similar war crimes.

How can we assume that the situation of Hamas is not the same? That they are investigating right now how a small number of Israeli civilians were killed and are doing there best to prevent future occurrences.

Admittedly, the reason no investigation was carried out for Hamas was because they refused to cooperate, but you cannot blame them. The UN has ignored the numerous international laws Israel has broken and blamed Palestine before, why should they change now?
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Post by Cruijf Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:50 pm

stevieg8 wrote:

It's odd you reference the UN "starting this whole conflict"... how would you prefer countries be founded? Obviously the ideal is "indigenous people, with no conflict from anyone else in the area, band together to form a democratic government." But considering that has literally never happened, in the history of the world, I'm wondering which of the practical options you'd prefer?

The original idea wasn't bad. Just kidding, it was horrible. But at least I can empathize with the UN (or League of Nations as they were called back then) and say that their solution was one of the best available. They didn't have a lot of options.

However, the instant Israel began to take land and make illegal settlements in Palestine, the UN should've been there, punishing Israel and righting the wrongs (however small they were at that point) that had been committed.

I'll give you an example.

Let's say you take two toddlers who both LOVE a particular sand box. One of them has grown up playing with this sandbox and legally it belongs to him, but the second is poor and can't afford his own sandbox to play in, so out of pity, a third party comes in and persuades the two to share it.

Excellent. Not an ideal solution, but an admirable effort, correct? Now, bearing in mind that these are greedy, selfish toddlers and both of them love the sandbox, as well as the fact that you are the only one that can stop a fight that breaks out between the two, you leave them alone and go by yourself a cup of coffee. You return an hour later and surprise, surprise! The two toddlers that had agreed to share are now mortal enemies.

Still with me? Good.

There are three things you must do.

1. You, the third party, must acknowledge that this was your fault and apologize to both toddlers.
2. Second, you must find out every single act that each toddler committed that was out of line, and compensate every injured party.
3. You must, keeping in mind that this sandbox originally belonged to toddler 1, create a new agreement that both parties are happy with and that gives toddler 1 most, if not all, of his original privileges.

That is your MORAL obligation.

That is what the UN should be doing.

Right now, they are pretending to be completely detached from the scenario, they are refusing to look at the big picture, insisting instead of looking at small crimes committed in the now, and they are ignoring the rights of the Palestinians.

That is why anything the UN says, for or against Israel is worthless and can't truly be counted. They need to wake up and right the wrongs they caused before I can take their investigators whining about 'war crimes' seriously. 1500 CHILDREN have been killed by Israel in the past 10 years alone. Stop doing these ridiculous investigations to 'find facts' and do something to stop these senseless murders. That's what the previous investigator wanted the UN to do and he was sacked.
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