Gaza

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Post by Dutti Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:44 am

Legend wrote:
Dutti wrote:Is there nobody here who understands the word occupation?

Under siege yes but occupation? NO! It's different.

The word occupation has a very similar meaning to annexation ffs! A country's military has to invade a city and has control all over it before we can say the city is being occupied. Gaza has obviously not been occupied for a long time and now Israel is trying to occupy it by invading it.

Gaza has been under attack but it was not always under fire.

Like you said there were cease-fires in the past and you think Israel was the only one who would at times violate peace times?

I'm not saying I support Israel and I don't. I'm saying that both sides have had their own shares of crimes.


Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in September 2005, and declared itself no longer to be in occupation of the Strip. However, as it retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline, it continues to be designated as an occupying power in the Gaza Strip by the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly and some countries and various human rights organizations.
Both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are currently considered to be still occupied by Israel, according to the international community

I believe that's why Gaza is under siege. Occupy? nobody can be sure just by relying on what UN says.

Yes, it's true that UN refuses to acknowledge that Hamas has control but that's the reality. The Palestinians have been controlling Gaza for a while now and for some reason UN seems to be reluctant in recognizing this fact, which is kind of a bias towards Israel.

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Post by The Messiah Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:58 pm

It's hard to believe that some people still try to defend Israel.
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Post by Casciavit Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 pm

The Messiah wrote:It's hard to believe that some people still try to defend Israel.

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Post by The Messiah Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:25 pm

People who make home made bombs are being label as the aggressor. It's hard to believe, I feel overmatched by this amount of injustice.


An someone comes here to educate us about the difference between siege and occupation. Of what use is the difference to people in Palestine dying? Should we be more concerned about that, call it a siege, call it occupation, truth is? End result innocent people are being deliberately killed by Israel.
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Post by Cruijf Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:58 pm

Gaza - Page 5 68081_10151260095504304_471449015_n
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Post by Cruijf Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:06 pm

Dutti wrote:

I don't blame Palestinians for self defence by returning fire if they are receiving enemy's fire. Otherwise, it becomes ill-thought-out retribution.

You're not seeming to grasp one very crucial concept...

Israel has been slowly but surely taking Palestinian land since 1948 on the premise that it was theirs to begin with. Almost no Israeli civilians have been intentionally killed, but Palestine has fought back.

When Israel criticizes Palestine for attempting to take back land that was theirs in the first place and people agree, you know something's wrong.

Not only has Israel killed innocent Palestinians to steal their land, but they have also killed even more when they try to fight back. You can't say that those martyrs were wrong for trying. Yet you call them terrorists and use them as 'examples' of Palestines crimes here.

I have an immense amount of respect for you for coming out to at least discuss this, but be objective please.
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Post by TalkingReckless Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:42 pm

Dutti wrote:
Legend wrote:
Dutti wrote:Is there nobody here who understands the word occupation?

Under siege yes but occupation? NO! It's different.

The word occupation has a very similar meaning to annexation ffs! A country's military has to invade a city and has control all over it before we can say the city is being occupied. Gaza has obviously not been occupied for a long time and now Israel is trying to occupy it by invading it.

Gaza has been under attack but it was not always under fire.

Like you said there were cease-fires in the past and you think Israel was the only one who would at times violate peace times?

I'm not saying I support Israel and I don't. I'm saying that both sides have had their own shares of crimes.


Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in September 2005, and declared itself no longer to be in occupation of the Strip. However, as it retains control of Gaza's airspace and coastline, it continues to be designated as an occupying power in the Gaza Strip by the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly and some countries and various human rights organizations.
Both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are currently considered to be still occupied by Israel, according to the international community

I believe that's why Gaza is under siege. Occupy? nobody can be sure just by relying on what UN says.

Yes, it's true that UN refuses to acknowledge that Hamas has control but that's the reality. The Palestinians have been controlling Gaza for a while now and for some reason UN seems to be reluctant in recognizing this fact, which is kind of a bias towards Israel.

So lets see not only does Israel controls the borders, air, sea and resources (Food, health supplies etc) going in and out of the country but it also collects taxes from people of Palestine. But that still doesn't count as occupation because Gaza has it own government....


And if nobody can b sure to rely on what UN says that we might not even consider Israel a country, because the UN (League of Nations back then) is the on that created it over the area of Mandatory Palestine (Formerly governed by Britain)
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Post by Cruijf Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:57 pm

This is called morals Heart

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Post by Il Diavolo Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:02 am



The man talks sense!
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Post by zizzle Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:10 am

ACMRox wrote:This is called morals Heart



i take my hate off for such a man
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:40 am

whoever doesn't support gaza is either an isreali or a sick man. How in the world can you let injustice like that happen in the gaza strip?
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Post by Dutti Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:30 am

ACMRox wrote:
Dutti wrote:

I don't blame Palestinians for self defence by returning fire if they are receiving enemy's fire. Otherwise, it becomes ill-thought-out retribution.

You're not seeming to grasp one very crucial concept...

Israel has been slowly but surely taking Palestinian land since 1948 on the premise that it was theirs to begin with. Almost no Israeli civilians have been intentionally killed, but Palestine has fought back.

When Israel criticizes Palestine for attempting to take back land that was theirs in the first place and people agree, you know something's wrong.

Not only has Israel killed innocent Palestinians to steal their land, but they have also killed even more when they try to fight back. You can't say that those martyrs were wrong for trying. Yet you call them terrorists and use them as 'examples' of Palestines crimes here.

I have an immense amount of respect for you for coming out to at least discuss this, but be objective please.

I am sick and tired of troll like you making claims that are not true about me.

Did I say Palestinians are terrorists? When did I use that word? Are you having a case of brainfart or are you that impolite? I can't even have a fair discussion here.

Yes, Palestinians can fight to have their land back. I don't see anything wrong in that but your poor comprehension let you down again. I said I blamed them for killing people during the supposedly agreed ceasefire.

FFS will you ever make an accurate read! And don't ever claim I said words that I did not ever say such as terrorists! If you want your opinions to be respected discuss without being a trolling kid.


Last edited by Dutti on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Dutti Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:34 am

Legend wrote:
And if nobody can b sure to rely on what UN says that we might not even consider Israel a country, because the UN (League of Nations back then) is the on that created it over the area of Mandatory Palestine (Formerly governed by Britain)

You know, you have taken what I said out of context. I said you can't rely on UN words for saying Israel still occupies Gaza. I didn't mean to say you can't rely on whatever UN says in general.

I'm not the only one who has this opinion. Some people I know think UN is not up-to-date on the matter that Hamas controls Gaza.
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:58 am

Dutti (stfu)stop it kindly, with all due respect. Kids are being killed everyday. if isreal was being bombed so much why is the standard of living exceptionally high while palestine looks like a *bleep* 10th world country. Where are they getting the powerful rocket weapons from? Their ass?

Isreal looks like a paradise compared to palestine. Poor isrealis.
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Post by Dutti Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:45 am

Giggity5313 wrote:Dutti (stfu)stop it kindly, with all due respect. Kids are being killed everyday. if isreal was being bombed so much why is the standard of living exceptionally high while palestine looks like a *bleep* 10th world country. Where are they getting the powerful rocket weapons from? Their ass?

Isreal looks like a paradise compared to palestine. Poor isrealis.

Look, I don't know what you are jumping on here. Please read my posts before you say something like this.

It seems like you are claiming that I don't think Gaza is being bombed so much. Obviously, I do not imply any bit of this so far.

Seriously, please please please read first so that you don't become someone like ACMRox who seems to always says something inaccurate about what I said.

Also, I get it that you are sixteen but you don't say "stfu" and "all due respect" in the same line.
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Post by FennecFox7 Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:51 pm

Dutti wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:Dutti (stfu)stop it kindly, with all due respect. Kids are being killed everyday. if isreal was being bombed so much why is the standard of living exceptionally high while palestine looks like a *bleep* 10th world country. Where are they getting the powerful rocket weapons from? Their ass?

Isreal looks like a paradise compared to palestine. Poor isrealis.

Look, I don't know what you are jumping on here. Please read my posts before you say something like this.

It seems like you are claiming that I don't think Gaza is being bombed so much. Obviously, I do not imply any bit of this so far.

Seriously, please please please read first so that you don't become someone like ACMRox who seems to always says something inaccurate about what I said.

Also, I get it that you are sixteen but you don't say "stfu" and "all due respect" in the same line.
I'm 16. That's great. I don't endorse killing babies like you, despite you being more "mature". When you bring my age into this argument I know you've lost.
Isreal is being attacked by homemade rockets and almost none of them have died.
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Post by TalkingReckless Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:53 pm

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Post by Cruijf Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:55 pm

Legend wrote:

Dutti, please, calm down, set aside the anger you seem to have against us here who defend Palestine, and watch this video.

On Palestine supposedly breaking cease fires, give me even just one incident where they have attacked Israel unprovoked during an agreed cease fire.
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Post by Cruijf Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:26 am

It amazes me how liberal people are with the 'self defence' statement. I don't know if I am completely oblivious to what the term actually means, because to me killing 135 people and injuring a 1000 in 'retaliation' to random bombings is not an example that comes to mind when I think of the term. If we were to think about it in terms of kids in the playground, Gaza is kid A who swore at kid B because he took his lunch, so kid B just decides to mercilessly beat him up for swearing at him. Kid B did it under self defence, after gaining the approval and support of all the teachers, who told him that he has to defend himself and stand up to bullies....seems like all the teachers forgot that the only reason kid A swore was because kid B initially took his lunch money.

Call it what you want, but it is not self defence. This sort of double standards behind the term is repulsive.

Heart
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Post by Cruijf Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:29 am

Dutti, please read this entire article and then post your response.

The way western politicians and media have pontificated about Israel's onslaught on Gaza, you'd think it was facing an unprovoked attack from a well-armed foreign power. Israel had every "right to defend itself", Barack Obama declared. "No country on earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders."

He was echoed by Britain's foreign secretary, William Hague, who declared that the Palestinian Islamists of Hamas bore "principal responsibility" for Israel's bombardment of the open-air prison that is the Gaza Strip. Meanwhile, most western media have echoed Israel's claim that its assault is in retaliation for Hamas rocket attacks; the BBC speaks wearisomely of a conflict of "ancient hatreds".

In fact, an examination of the sequence of events over the last month shows that Israel played the decisive role in the military escalation: from its attack on a Khartoum arms factory reportedly supplying arms to Hamas and the killing of 15 Palestinian fighters in late October, to the shooting of a mentally disabled Palestinian in early November, the killing of a 13 year-old in an Israeli incursion and, crucially, the assassination of the Hamas commander Ahmed Jabari last Wednesday during negotiations over a temporary truce.

Israel's prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, had plenty of motivation to unleash a new round of bloodletting. There was the imminence of Israeli elections (military attacks on the Palestinians are par for the course before Israeli polls); the need to test Egypt's new Muslim Brotherhood president, Mohamed Morsi, and pressure Hamas to bring other Palestinian guerrilla groups to heel; and the chance to destroy missile caches before any confrontation with Iran, and test Israel's new Iron Dome anti-missile system.

So after six days of sustained assault by the world's fourth largest military power on one of its most wretched and overcrowded territories, at least 130 Palestinians had been killed, an estimated half of them civilians, along with five Israelis. The goal, Israel's interior minister, Eli Yeshai, insisted, had been to "send Gaza back to the middle ages".

True, the bloodshed hasn't so far been on the scale of Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9, which left 1,400 Palestinians dead in three weeks. But the issue isn't just who started and escalated it, or even the grinding "disproportionality" of yet another Israeli military battering (even before last month's flareups, 314 Palestinians had been killed since 2009, as against 20 Israelis).

It's that to portray Israel as some kind of victim with every right to "defend itself" from attack from "outside its borders" is a grotesque inversion of reality. Israel has after all been in illegal occupation of both the West Bank and Gaza, where most of the population are the families of refugees who were driven out of what is now Israel in 1948, for the past 45 years.

Despite Israel's withdrawal of settlements and bases in 2005, the Gaza Strip remains occupied, both effectively and legally – and is recognised as such by the UN. Israel is in control of Gaza's land and sea borders, territorial waters and natural resources, airspace, power supply and telecommunications. It has blockaded the strip since Hamas took over in 2006-7, preventing the movement of people, materials, and food supplies in and out of the territory – even calculating the 2,279 calories per person that would keep Gazans on an exemplary "diet". And it continues to invade the strip at will.

So Gazans are an occupied people and have the right to resist, including by armed force (though not to target civilians), while Israel is an occupying power that has an obligation to withdraw – not a right to defend territories it controls or is colonising by dint of military power.

Even if Israel had genuinely ended its occupation in 2005, Gaza's people are Palestinians, and their territory part of the 22% of historic Palestine earmarked for a Palestinian state that depends on Israeli withdrawal from the occupied West Bank and east Jerusalem. Across their land, Palestinians have the right to defend and arm themselves, whether they choose to exercise it or not.

But instead the US, Britain and other European powers finance, arm and back to the hilt Israel's occupation, including the siege of Gaza – precisely to prevent Palestinians obtaining the arms that would allow them to protect themselves against Israeli military might.

It's hardly surprising of course that powers which have themselves invaded, occupied and intervened across the Arab and Muslim world over the last decade should throw their weight behind Israel doing the same thing on its own doorstep. But it isn't Palestinian rockets that stop Israel lifting the blockade, dismantling its illegal settlements or withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza – it's unconditional US and western support that gives Israel impunity.

Whatever the Israeli government's mix of motivations for winding up the past week's conflict, it seems to have backfired. For the first time since the start of the Arab uprisings, the cause of Palestine is again centre stage.

Emboldened by the wave of change and growing support across the region, Hamas has also regained credibility as a resistance force, which had faded since 2009, and strengthened its hand against an increasingly discredited Palestinian Authority leadership in Ramallah. The deployment of longer-range rockets that have now been shown to reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is also beginning to shift what has been an overwhelmingly one-sided balance of deterrence.

The truce being negotiated on Tuesday would reportedly enforce Hamas responsibility for policing the strip and crucially break the blockade, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt for goods as well as people. It doesn't, however, look like the long-term security deal with Hamas Israel was looking for, which would risk deepening the disastrous Palestinian split between Gaza and the West Bank.

Any relief from the bombardment, death and suffering of the past week has got to be welcome. But no ceasefire is going to prevent another eruption of violence. Whatever is finally agreed won't end Israel's occupation and colonisation of Palestinian land or halt its war of dispossession against the Palestinian people. That demands unrelenting pressure on the western powers that underwrite it to change course. But most of all, it needs a change in the balance of forces on the ground.
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Post by Dutti Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:09 am

Giggity5313 wrote:
Dutti wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:Dutti (stfu)stop it kindly, with all due respect. Kids are being killed everyday. if isreal was being bombed so much why is the standard of living exceptionally high while palestine looks like a *bleep* 10th world country. Where are they getting the powerful rocket weapons from? Their ass?

Isreal looks like a paradise compared to palestine. Poor isrealis.

Look, I don't know what you are jumping on here. Please read my posts before you say something like this.

It seems like you are claiming that I don't think Gaza is being bombed so much. Obviously, I do not imply any bit of this so far.

Seriously, please please please read first so that you don't become someone like ACMRox who seems to always says something inaccurate about what I said.

Also, I get it that you are sixteen but you don't say "stfu" and "all due respect" in the same line.
I'm 16. That's great. I don't endorse killing babies like you, despite you being more "mature". When you bring my age into this argument I know you've lost.
Isreal is being attacked by homemade rockets and almost none of them have died.

No I shouldn't bring your age into this conversation but your logic perhaps?

Endorse killing babies? this thread is full of trolls...
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Post by Dutti Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:22 am

ACMRox wrote:
Legend wrote:

Dutti, please, calm down, set aside the anger you seem to have against us here who defend Palestine, and watch this video.

On Palestine supposedly breaking cease fires, give me even just one incident where they have attacked Israel unprovoked during an agreed cease fire.

You know, you really are a troll for suddenly coming to your senses.

2008:

No reporter was sure about which side fired first, but, in this case, both sides did violate the ceasefire agreement.

In the article, it's mentioned that Gaza never fully stopped firing rockets entirely during the truce.

It's not the common Palestines that I don't like, it's Hamas. It's always the government that is full of shit. So I don't defend both Israel and Hamas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html?scp=2&sq=Ethan%20Bronner%20December%202008%20gaza&st=cse
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Post by Amar Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:21 am

Is it true Israel's using white phosphorus once again?
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Post by RealGunner Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:17 am

yea
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Post by McLewis Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:11 pm

Simple question: What would it take to truly resolve this conflict?

I'm not talking about truces, but real compromise and lasting peace in this region.
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Post by TalkingReckless Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:19 pm

McLewis wrote:Simple question: What would it take to truly resolve this conflict?

I'm not talking about truces, but real compromise and lasting peace in this region.


One state where both Israeli and arabs (Muslims, Christian and Jews) live and not seperated like they are ATM.
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