Ozil (2013) or Kaka (2013)

vanDEEZ wrote:

Donuts wrote:
I'm not bringing up the past by any way or form all I have been saying is since Madrids horrible start in the league Kaka has been one of your better if not best players when played, so why underrate him currently, also it is never a players fault that the club is overpaying, should of sold him for a lower price.

i dont think kaka has even played 90 minutes so far (definitely not including the friendly match against that colombian team) so to compare him to anyone based on what he has done this season is a bit unfair especially since he hasnt played against any team i consider actual competition.

even considering the matches he has played, which yes he played well against ajax, he has been out shined by players of less skill, less experience, less playing time with madrid, and players further from their physical peak than kaka.

and true its not the players fault he is overpaid, but imo he should have been sold, and considering we bought another player in his position i would say we were trying to sell him.

Care to name the players of less skill, less experience, and less playing time that outshone Kaka in the matches he played this season?

Since he played fewer minutes he's had less time to make a mark or to leave a lasting impression so I agree it isn't fair not for his teammates but to him to compare him with individuals who've been awarded more opportunities to impress the coach. Kaka took the few chances he was given well, that should be the objective of any player, and based on his handwork and current top form he has earned more playing time.

If you reject arguments for Kaka based on his past status as a Balon d'Or winner then you should equally reject arguments against him based on his poor form from seasons passed. If we can't make use of his legendary status to argue positively for him you should not have the luxury to argue against him based on his history of poor form. The present is what counts. Like any player the only thing that should be relevant is his current form.

Roundsquare wrote:

Care to name the players of less skill, less experience, and less playing time that outshone Kaka in the matches he played this season?

gladly: less skill- khedira, xabi. less experience- di maria, ozil, marcelo, benz, higgy. less playing time with madrid- modric, essien

Roundsquare wrote:
Since he played fewer minutes he's had less time to make a mark or to leave a lasting impression so I agree it isn't fair not for his teammates but to him to compare him with individuals who've been awarded more opportunities to impress the coach. Kaka took the few chances he was given well, that should be the objective of any player, and based on his handwork and current top form he has earned more playing time.

If you reject arguments for Kaka based on his past status as a Balon d'Or winner then you should equally reject arguments against him based on his poor form from seasons passed. If we can't make use of his legendary status to argue positively for him you should not have the luxury to argue against him based on his history of poor form. The present is what counts. Like any player the only thing that should be relevant is his current form.

the thing about judging kaka's 'current form' is the fact that we have seen this every single season with madrid and if history has taught us anything its that history is bound to repeat itself.

it is my opinion that recent history is more valid than accomplishments that were pre-injury like balon dor or CL success etc.

kaka has played 3 seasons at madrid and we have MAYBE seen 15 good matches from him. out of 96 appearances- not good enough imo.

ozil who has played only 2 seasons, played better in his first month than kaka did his entire first year.

modric who has only had a couple appearances so far looks promising and is fitting in very nicely, proving himself in every appearance he has made thus far.

that is the reason im inclined to favor modric and ozil over kaka. i take 1 good game against a battered ajax with a grain of salt, but i do take years of good performances (ozil) and promising ability (modric) very seriously.

vanDEEZ wrote:gladly: less skill- khedira, xabi. less experience- di maria, ozil, marcelo, benz, higgy. less playing time with madrid- modric, essien

Name the matches Kaka has played this season in which he's been inferior to any of the players in your list?

As for Xabi, I'd say he has the same experience and skill in his position in the center of the park that Kaka has in his position up field.

Our strikers have been painfully inconsistent this season so how exactly have they outperformed Kaka, Ozil has not outplayed Kaka this season as well, according to whoscored.com Kaka currently holds an overall rating that is higher than Ozil's, Kaka's CAM performance is currently rated at 8.26 compared to Ozil's 6.79, meaning that no one has given a better performance than Kaka as an attacking midfielder this season.

vanDEEZ wrote:the thing about judging kaka's 'current form' is the fact that we have seen this every single season with madrid and if history has taught us anything its that history is bound to repeat itself.

If history is bound to repeat itself than Kaka's glory days may be on the horizon as they are a part of history. Kaka could peak one last time before his candle goes out for good. That said, this is the longest run of form Kaka has enjoyed at Madrid, don't be so quick to write it off as something that's happened before.

vanDEEZ wrote:it is my opinion that recent history is more valid than accomplishments that were pre-injury like balon dor or CL success etc.

Your entitled to hold opinions, just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

vanDEEZ wrote:kaka has played 3 seasons at madrid and we have MAYBE seen 15 good matches from him. out of 96 appearances- not good enough imo.

I would like to see some confirmation.

vanDEEZ wrote:ozil who has played only 2 seasons, played better in his first month than kaka did his entire first year.

Ozil only played a match in his first month for Madrid against Mallorca and that game ended in a draw.

Luca Modric is a promising player but Kaka has looked lethal.

Are we watching the same kaka? Hasn't he only been "on form" for what 3 games?

Ozil vs Barcelona in the last match is much worthy than Kaka vs Ajax imo.
Last season kaka was fully fit most of the time and he got plenty run of games to show off especially when di maria out for substantial period of time.
I agree that consistent playing time probably will help him even better, but at what expense? Last season sharing minutes with kaka in most first half of the season almost ruining ozil. The main reason ozil such as beast after the winter break last season was because he continuously played with mostly 90 minutes, he needed that to reach his top form. Kaka got the same chance as ozil at second half of the season due to di maria injury, he's decent most of the time but ozil was just so much better that it's really easy to make a choice between them when there's a choice needs to make.

alexander mahone wrote:Ozil vs Barcelona in the last match is much worthy than Kaka vs Ajax imo.
Last season kaka was fully fit most of the time and he got plenty run of games to show off especially when di maria out for substantial period of time.
I agree that consistent playing time probably will help him even better, but at what expense? Last season sharing minutes with kaka in most first half of the season almost ruining ozil. The main reason ozil such as beast after the winter break last season was because he continuously played with mostly 90 minutes, he needed that to reach his top form. Kaka got the same chance as ozil at second half of the season due to di maria injury, he's decent most of the time but ozil was just so much better that it's really easy to make a choice between them when there's a choice needs to make.

In your dreams was Ozils Barcelona performance better than Kaka's Ajax performance, Ozil was hopeless in the 1st half and although he improved in the second half was still way below his best, had it not been for that assist it would have been another unimpressive display by the German.

i dont even know how quite to respond to this, half of it is garbage but ill try to sift through it.

okay you first ask me to choose matches in which players have outperformed kaka, pick any of them. all the players i listed have had at least 2 standout performances better than kakas 1-2 good games, and against better opposition, in a more important setting.

next- "history bound to repeat it self," yes it is. and the recent history of him disappearing after a couple good games will repeat itself, not him returning to his pre-injury self (2007)

"this is the longest run of form Kaka has enjoyed at Madrid, don't be so quick to write it off as something that's happened before."

---- what 2 games? 2 games is his longest run of form? really? you are proud of this, and you bolded this point to emphasize it? you must not watch football.

next point- you think no one will agree with me? really? the only one who agrees with you is huntsman and if you havent noticed, hes mentally challenged.

next point- you need confirmation? okay come back in a month we will see how great he is playing

"Ozil only played a match in his first month for Madrid against Mallorca and that game ended in a draw. "

sorry are you mentally handicapped? in what way is this true? obviously he only signed more than halfway through august.. so his first month at madrid would span past aug. 29th smart guy.

and lol at you basing your argument on whoscored player ratings. give me a break.

what it comes down to is this- kaka has had 2 decent games 2!! this happens every year when kaka slightly comes into form people join the forum like you did. over react, post a bunch of bs all over the forum over hyping him and then when he returns to his usual form you leave.

Ozil hopeless in the 1st half? First goal vs Barca was initiated by his move down the right, the sitter missed by benzema and di maria were also down to his doing, as was benzema volley from cristiano's cross which was also initiated by ozil. He had hand at pretty much all the clear chances in 1st half and defending excellently. But yeah that was hopeless half for ozil.

The fact that people kept downplaying ozil performance (this including his performance as sub vs manchester city and rayo) and saying something like 'oh that was still below his best, oh he still off form' despite his crucial contributions, while people easily got excited over every tiny good thing kaka or modric did actually show just how quality ozil is.

alexander mahone wrote:Hopeless in the 1st half? First goal was initiated by his move down the right, the sitter missed by benzema and di maria were also down to his doing, as was benzema volley from cristiano's cross which was also initiated by ozil. He had hand at pretty much all the clear chances in 1st half and defending excellently. But yeah that was hopeless half for ozil.

The fact that people kept downplaying ozil performance (this including his performance as sub vs manchester city and rayo) and saying something like 'oh that was still below his best, oh he still off form' despite his crucial contributions, while people easily got excited over every tiny good thing kaka or modric did actually show just how quality ozil is.

Is this really necessary.

Almost as annoying as this new guy.

vanDEEZ wrote:i dont even know how quite to respond to this, half of it is garbage but ill try to sift through it.

okay you first ask me to choose matches in which players have outperformed kaka, pick any of them. all the players i listed have had at least 2 standout performances better than kakas 1-2 good games, and against better opposition, in a more important setting.

I hope you do realize the irrelevancy of what you said above, once in a while players outperform each other, Ronaldo has been outperformed by some of the players on your list a few times. You've actually changed your initial statement which was,

even considering the matches he has played, which yes he played well against ajax, he has been out shined by players of less skill, less experience, less playing time with madrid, and players further from their physical peak than kaka.

Basically you wished to say that the players on your list were better than Kaka against Milonarios and Ajax. We know that isn't true.

vanDEEZ wrote:---- what 2 games? 2 games is his longest run of form? really? you are proud of this, and you bolded this point to emphasize it? you must not watch football.

You should watch football, Kaka's hot streak has been afoot since preseason, it continued with Brazil last week Thursday, making it his longest run of form, why? Because he has finally put injury and fitness woes behind him. He is finally fully fit and the proof is in the pudding, i.e. his extreme defensive work rate and involvement in every part of the pitch, just like the good old days case in point against Barcelona he snatched the ball from Pedro's feet in our penalty box, for an attacker that is great defensive work.

He didn't have this same energy and hunger last season, not even when he was scoring goals and assisting.

vanDEEZ wrote:next point- you need confirmation? okay come back in a month we will see how great he is playing

As I thought, you make baseless claims then dodge as you just did when challenged on them. That said, I dare say that if Kaka enjoys consistent football and remains injury free a month from now he will still be playing great... watch this space

August was Ozil's first month at Madrid he played against Mallorca to a 0-0 stand off.

vanDEEZ wrote:and lol at you basing your argument on whoscored player ratings. give me a break.

Instead of bashing my source show that it is irrelevant.

alexander mahone wrote:Ozil hopeless in the 1st half? First goal vs Barca was initiated by his move down the right, the sitter missed by benzema and di maria were also down to his doing, as was benzema volley from cristiano's cross which was also initiated by ozil. He had hand at pretty much all the clear chances in 1st half and defending excellently. But yeah that was hopeless half for ozil.

The fact that people kept downplaying ozil performance (this including his performance as sub vs manchester city and rayo) and saying something like 'oh that was still below his best, oh he still off form' despite his crucial contributions, while people easily got excited over every tiny good thing kaka or modric did actually show just how quality ozil is.

Ozil was way below his best against Barcelona and so far this season, if you wish to maintain that what we've seen so far from him, 1 assist and 1 goal in 7 matches across all competitions and an average rating of 6.57 from whoscored.com is his best then I must say his best is very unimpressive.

Get off your blinders and admit that Ozil has had a very poor start to the season we all know he is several times better than this.

Kaka's Ajax performance vs Mesut's Barcelona performance

Whoscored.come rates Kaka's Ajax performance at 8.26 compared to Ozil's Barcelona performance that is rated at 7.45, mostly due to that assist I suspect.

Mesut only made 2 key passes in this game, on the other hand he gave up possession on 5 different occasions more than any of his teammates, and who can forget that dangerous free kick he gave away outside our penalty box at 45 minutes. He made no tackles just 2 interceptions.

To be fair Kaka also gave up possession against Ajax on 5 different occasions but he made 5 key passes as well, and who can forget that beautiful assist that led to Benzema's bicycle goal. Kaka attempted 7 crosses more than anyone on the pitch of which 2 were accurate. Defensively Kaka was more impactful than Ozil both in the Ajax and Barcelona match. Against AJax only Pepe had more tackles than Kaka, against Barcelona Kaka matched Pepe's tackles, in just 10 minutes he made 3 tackles one clearance and 1 interception, Ozil only made 2 interceptions although playing for 83 munutes.

Do you compare Barcelona with Ajax ?

Kizu wrote:Do you compare Barcelona with Ajax ?

My point was to show that Ozil did not perform better than Kaka this season, which is an idea vanDEEZ is trying to promote.

But why do you compare players with a sample size of 1 game? You shouldnt do it to begin with. Ozil has been fairly poor since the beginning of the season, that's a given, but he was in there with the whole team struggling, enduring the pressure of having to come out and to perform. As opposed to Kaka being cuddled back in the line up. Kaka has had one good competitive game so far, just one, so let's wait before we can draw big headlines about how good he is.

Also, you are quite overblowing Kaka's performance vs Barca. I did great in he very few minutes he played, i would be first to acknowledge that. But it's easier to come late in a game with a high energy level and to run your ass off for 10min. It's much harder when you have to begin the game and run after the ball for long stretches of possession, and endure it all for 70 or 80 min. I would argue that it's easier to play vs Ajax than it is to play vs Barca, much easier actually and in a 0 pressure context. Statistics are nice and all, but will never be enough.

Way too early to write so many lines about Kaka as if he is playing like Di Stefano. He is showing encouraging signs so far, and showing he will e useful, that's it. And yeah Ozil has been super average.

you guys are seriously discussing who should start ozil is 24 kaka is 30,that should say enough

Mr Nick09 wrote:But why do you compare players with a sample size of 1 game? You shouldnt do it to begin with.

Kaka has not played only one game he has had 3 games in white, Deportivo, Barcelona and Ajax, 4 if you include Milonarios, and he gave his best performance at the Ajax game. As the stats stand at the moment he has outplayed Ozil all season, and basically made the CAM position his own in the Ajax match. Ozil has had more chances than Kaka to deliver a stellar performance and has failed so far, his played hard games and easy games as well, whereas Kaka with his fewer chances managed to give a stellar performance against Ajax.

Mr Nick09 wrote:has been fairly poor since the beginning of the season, that's a given

Apparently it's not a given for everyone on this blog. That said, It is absolutely unfair for you to suggest that Ozil has been fighting hard with the team from day one while Kaka hasn't been pulling his own weight, Kaka has earned his good performances, he didn't have a walk in the park, he's been working his butt off during training, doing double training sessions, he has earned his good performances, and today his international rebirth continued with another worthy showing against Japan. He looked completely at ease on the ball today and linked well with his teammates, created chances and even managed to score a sublime goal. He was one of the top players in this match.

Mr Nick09 wrote:Also, you are quite overblowing Kaka's performance vs Barca.

How did I overblow Kaka's performance against Barca I just stated what he achieved during his time on the pitch. Barcelona pressed hard in the dying minutes and Kaka took on defensive duties with ease. There is no denying that his work rate has amplified, he is pressing better than Ozil at the moment.

Mr Nick09 wrote:But it's easier to come late in a game with a high energy level and to run your !@#$%^&* off for 10min.

Kaka covered more ground than any other Madrid player against Ajax , he has been running his butt off in a few games now.

Ganso wrote:you guys are seriously discussing who should start ozil is 24 kaka is 30,that should say enough

The in form player should start it's not about status or age, it's about who deserves to start.

Roundsquare you are going RoundinCircles

Ozil's better than Kaka.

ColoJunior wrote:Roundsquare you are going RoundinCircles

I'm simply replying to Ozil fanboys.

Yohan Modric wrote:Ozil's better than Kaka.

Ozil's a better passer/distributor than Kaka, and controls the ball better. Interestingly even though Ozil is a better passer last season in La Liga according to the official club website Kaka and Ozil had the same pass accuracy.

They have about the same speed, Kaka is a better shooter, he can sculpt individual scoring opportunities better than Ozil, whereas Ozil is better at creating goals for others, Kaka is also a better tackler. Creativity and vision are about the same.

So although Ozil is a better distributer of the ball, Kaka is a better attacker.

Roundsquare wrote:

ColoJunior wrote:Roundsquare you are going RoundinCircles

I'm simply replying to Ozil fanboys.

Yohan Modric wrote:Ozil's better than Kaka.

Ozil's a better passer/distributor than Kaka, and controls the ball better. Interestingly even though Ozil is a better passer last season in La Liga according to the official club website Kaka and Ozil had the same pass accuracy.

They have about the same speed, Kaka is a better shooter, he can sculpt individual scoring opportunities better than Ozil, whereas Ozil is better at creating goals for others, Kaka is also a better tackler. Creativity and vision are about the same.

So although Ozil is a better distributer of the ball, Kaka is a better attacker.

any admin wana check ips? this guy is either the biggest kaka fanboy of all time or huntsman has another account.

vanDEEZ wrote:any admin wana check ips? this guy is either the biggest kaka fanboy of all time or huntsman has another account.

Everyone in here is basically an Ozil fanboy, Kaka is still a Real Madrid and deserves to be treated like one. Instead of being brushed aside as irrelevant, he is showing the world that at 30 he isn't irrelevant yet. I'm here to defend a player who has received unjustified hate left right and center.

hrealmadrid wrote:

Roundsquare wrote:

ColoJunior wrote:Roundsquare you are going RoundinCircles

I'm simply replying to Ozil fanboys.

Yohan Modric wrote:Ozil's better than Kaka.

Ozil's a better passer/distributor than Kaka, and controls the ball better. Interestingly even though Ozil is a better passer last season in La Liga according to the official club website Kaka and Ozil had the same pass accuracy.

They have about the same speed, Kaka is a better shooter, he can sculpt individual scoring opportunities better than Ozil, whereas Ozil is better at creating goals for others, Kaka is also a better tackler. Creativity and vision are about the same.

So although Ozil is a better distributer of the ball, Kaka is a better attacker.

Kaka and OZil have about the same speed, I'm not alone in noting this, even football-centric websites like goal.com indicate that they have the same speed.

Le Samourai wrote:

alexander mahone wrote:Hopeless in the 1st half? First goal was initiated by his move down the right, the sitter missed by benzema and di maria were also down to his doing, as was benzema volley from cristiano's cross which was also initiated by ozil. He had hand at pretty much all the clear chances in 1st half and defending excellently. But yeah that was hopeless half for ozil.

The fact that people kept downplaying ozil performance (this including his performance as sub vs manchester city and rayo) and saying something like 'oh that was still below his best, oh he still off form' despite his crucial contributions, while people easily got excited over every tiny good thing kaka or modric did actually show just how quality ozil is.

Is this really necessary.

Almost as annoying as this new guy.

He is telling the truth. Too much hating on Özil? This pseudo discussion is quite fun. Keep going

Roundsquare wrote:Everyone in here is basically an Ozil fanboy

so you think its more likely that everyone here is an ozil fanboy, but its only coincidence that you join the forums the second kaka has 1 good game and reply to only kaka themed threads. right, youre the unbiased one and everyone else are biased fanboys.

right, of course that makes sense.

Roundsquare wrote:

Kaka and OZil have about the same speed, I'm not alone in noting this, even football-centric websites like goal.com indicate that they have the same speed.

ive officially heard enough, he just cited goal.com as a credible source. pack your things guys, no need to be in the madrid section anymore.