Should our defensive line be dropped back?

+8
DuringTheWar
BarcaKizz
messixaviesta
The Franchise
vivabarca38
Jonathan28
kiranr
alexjanosik
12 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by alexjanosik Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:47 pm

For some of you on here,kindly note that I am not bashing Messi.Just discussing something as a result of the changes in his game.So dont take it as hate.
Its clear that Messi wont press like crazy for 90 min every game.He hasnt for around 2 years now.But lately his pressing has become almost non existent.Ronaldo pressed and put in more effort than Messi over the past 2 Clasico's.
So with one player not pressing,that player being the false 9,it messes up our entire pressing game.The CB's are allowed to pass out from the back.Sometimes Xavi has to come forward from midfield to put pressure on the CB's.Most times,the CB's are allowed to pass out from the back and as a result we win far less balls high up the pitch.Our intense pressing starts only in midfield.
That being the case,is there a need to drop our defense back?Maintaining such a high line requires 2 main things among others.That we press ridiculously from the front and that the 3 lines play as close together as possible,thereby constricting the play.
Right now our lines are close together but the pressing from the front is not there.
This leads to situations like the last game against Madrid,where they got in behind time and time again with a simple diagonal ball.
There were other defensive problems ofcourse but the high line coupled with the incomepetence of our defenders made matters worse.
This problem has been noticed in a lot of games in last season too.Our inablity to win the ball back high up the pitch coupled with our high line and incompetent defense has led to a lot of goals.
The problem has been exacerbated by Valdes loss in confidence.A year ago he was the best sweeper keeper in the world.Even if somebody got in behind he would sweep up brilliantly,either getting to the ball before the attacker did,or blocking the shot.
But he too has not had the best 12 months,no doubt mostly in part to the shaky defense in front of him.
I can recount many instances where he was caught in No Man's land while sweeping,something which was unthinkable a year ago.The most notable occasions were on the Ramires goal and on the ronaldo goal that sealed the league win for them.
His sweeping has not been to the standard that he set himself and I dont blame him for that.The defense in front of him is mostly to blame.

For our ridiculusly high line to work,4 moajor things are important.That we press fiendishly from the front,that the lines stay as close together as possible,that the defense maintains an impeccable line and offisde trap,and that Valdes is on top of his game as a sweeper keeper.
Out of the 4,we are currently lacking in 3 departments.We dont press fiendishly from the front,our line and offside trap is a joke nowadays and Valdes is not at the top of his game as a sweeper keeper.

So I think there is a certainly a case to be made to drop the line a bit further back.This would solve a few problems.We stop becoming vulnerable to the long quick ball over the top,the through ball on the counter,or the diagonal ball.
Valdes would get more cover.He wouldnt have to play the high stakes game of sweeper keeper,something which cant be pulled off successfully unless at the very top of his game.
I think our could be dropped back like Spain's.Spain at the Euros played a deep line and as a result were defensively very solid.
Now dropping the line may lead to lesser possession but not necessarily so.Spain had a lot of possession with a deep line,so i am confident that we could have more possession than Spain,even with a deep line.

Keep in mind that I am not entirely sure about the line dropping back.Its just something that needs to be considered under the present circumstances.I am 50-50 on it and would like to hear more opinions to make up my mind.
Once more,please dont take this as a Messi bashing post.

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by kiranr Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:54 pm

The lines dropping back may lead to fewer goals due to fewer attacking plays i feel. I think the only way to fix this issue is to get Messi to press again.

I don't think it is farfetched to think that Messi is not pressing as much to conserve energy and limit injuries. The coaching staff should not be worried about his goal output. They should plan for scenarios where Messi is injured.

So instead of dropping the lines back, Barcelona should be strengthening the attack in terms of options for goal output and strong defending from the front.
kiranr
kiranr
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 3496
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by alexjanosik Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:08 pm

Good points man.
You are right that we may score fewer goals but I dont think the output would drop as much.
Compared to the first 2 Pep years,we win way way less balls higher up the pitch than we do now.I remember that we used to score a lot of goals by winning balls high up the pitch.Now we dont score any such goals.
Our pressing starts from midfield.I am talking about dropping the line a few yards.I dont want us to play a very deep line.I am talking about a somewhat in between line.Drop back a few yards.This will lead to the defense becoming more confident and also leave far more room for error for Valdes.He can play the sweeper role far better with a deeper line as there would be less space( between him and the defense ) for him to cover.

Maybe we would score a few less goals but I dont think the output would decrease drastically.A tradeoff would have to be made.Better defense, especially in bigger games for a decreased output in goals.I think the tradeoff might be worth it.
Regarding Messi pressing,I would love nothing better than to see us defending from the front and maintain the high line that we do now.
But I just dont see Messi going back to the presser he was.Just wont happen imo.

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by Jonathan28 Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:37 pm

One of the reasons of our early success under Pep was due to our frontline pressing the opposition defenders. Eto'o was a major part of that with his will to win such that he led our frontline pressing. With your CF pressing the rest will follow suit and force the opposition into mistakes. I don't know what crazy person said that Messi doesn't have to press and to conserve his energy, but they need to be slapped over the head.

Having lost Eto'o and then having Messi stop pressing has really cost us I feel. We need to get it back, if that means buying a CF who will work hard like Cavani and moving Messi back to the right to join in so be it. One of the major reasons I defend Sanchez is because he and Pedro are the only ones who seem to press in our foward line.

I was recently thinking of us maybe moving Sanchez to CF since he has Eto'os drive and play Messi and Pedro outwide of him with Iniesta/Cesc behind. Dropping our defense deep would help but it could all be solved if Tito told Messi to press again.
Jonathan28
Jonathan28
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1917
Join date : 2011-07-31
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by alexjanosik Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:03 pm

Dont want Messi to move to the right.He is a far better player and far more influential down the center.Plus I dont think he would want to move back to the right.
I get the sense from your posts that u dont want the line dropped back and that Messi pressing again is the better option.
I agree too.I am talking of the scenario right now,where Messi doesnt press and where its highly unlikely that he will go back to pressing again.
What then?Should the line be dropped back in this scenario or is there a way around it?

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by Jonathan28 Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:22 pm

If Messi won't press then the only thing left woul be to drop the defensive line back and give opposition defenders time on the ball. This worked for Spain in that it gave them solidity and they were impossible to break through. Watching the way Osasuna and then Madrid just got through at will was annoying. Mistakes played a part in it but we looked like Chelsea under AVB, as if we didn't know how to play the high line.

A high line was always risky, but we never really got exposed until last seasonm Whether it was through injuries or defenders being injured I don't know. I'm willing to see us score less goals if our defense improves. We could play the high line against poorer teams where we would get away with Messi not pressing, but CL no.

On Messi in the centre yeah, he is at his best there, but I think he has started doing a Rooney where he comes far too deep and takes up Xavi, Iniesta's and Cesc's space. Either he has to become an out-an-out centre foward with Cesc behind him or go back outwide.
Jonathan28
Jonathan28
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1917
Join date : 2011-07-31
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by kiranr Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:28 pm

No, if Messi does not press, i don't see a way around it. The ball should not move out of the defense so easily when playing a high line. The only way any team gets the ball out of defense should be through long goal-kicks.

After reading your explanation Alex, on second thoughts, the line could be moved back a little to leave less room for the Madrid strikers to get behind the defense. This could also possible leave room for Sanchez to run at defenders instead of receiving the ball at an advanced position all the time. Dribbling when running at the defenders seems to be his strength, so in that sense dropping the line back a few yards may provide an added advantage in that form too apart from extra defensive stability.

kiranr
kiranr
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 3496
Join date : 2011-06-06

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by vivabarca38 Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:01 pm

Imo it should be dropped back a little bit.
vivabarca38
vivabarca38
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Borussia Mönchengladbach
Posts : 1730
Join date : 2011-06-08

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by The Franchise Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:07 pm

I find zero wrong in what Alex is saying, I dont disagree tactically whatsoever.

However, I dont agree with moving the line back. I dont accept such a fundemental change in what we do because one player (no matter how good) doesnt do part of his job.

I find the "conversing energy" to be a crock of shite and it sounds like something crazied fanboys say to protect their favourite player. How do you need to conserve energy where we have the ball 70% of the game? And why do you need to conserve more energy now than you did 2 seasons ago? Was you getting worn out at the end of those games?

The answer is no. But if the answer is yes, then why dont you take a rest now and again, you know, instead of playing every single minute of every single game, even when there is nothing to be gained from it?

I dont take it lightly, talking this way about the best player in the game and at least one of the best to ever do it isnt a simple thing. However, dont we preech how one player shouldnt be more important than the team?

So no, I refuse to say yes we should drop the line back. Tactically it may be the correct move, however there is a better option out there...Messi press.

Its not even that difficult. Other than the centerbacks, he has the next easiest task in term of pure energy use when pressing. All he has to do is close down one the centerback..thats it.

On one issue tactically. I dont think using Spain as a reference is good. I said it once and Ill probably say it again. Them defending well against the useless crop of European NT's in that competition doesnt really impress me.


The Franchise
The Franchise
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 19651
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 36

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by Jonathan28 Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:16 pm

I totally agree, our coaching staff need to grow some balls and tell Messi to stop going walk about during games and start pressing again. Watching Xavi running foward to press for Messi is disgraceful, it disrupts our game. I don't know whether it was some idiot coachs idea or Messi just started doing it himself but hasent yet been pulled up for it but it has to stop.

Maybe its part of some master plan to prevent Messi getting injured or Messi just wants to play 374739232839 games a season to score more goals, but it can all be solved by resting him once in awhile. Not even Ronaldo plays every game for Madrid. We have just about lost our main weapon which made us so dangerous 2 seasons ago and its cost us big.
Jonathan28
Jonathan28
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1917
Join date : 2011-07-31
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by vivabarca38 Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:33 pm

I agree with letting Messi press more.In 09 and 10 he was the best in the world but he used to press much more often than he does now.
vivabarca38
vivabarca38
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Borussia Mönchengladbach
Posts : 1730
Join date : 2011-06-08

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by alexjanosik Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:30 am

I think everyone agrees that without Messi pressing,the only option is to drop the line back.I had thought the same but wanted to hear opinions about whether there was another option.Seems not but still would like to hear other opinions.
The logical explanation is to ask Messi to start pressing again.There are other ways to conserve his energy.He neednt play every single game.He can easily rest 5,10 games a season when we play scrubs.

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by messixaviesta Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:24 pm

alex, that's an excellent post.

I agree with you that this is one option we have to consider but there are a few other points I would like to make.

One is that it makes the blunder of not trying to buy quality center backs all this while even more apparent and frustrating.

The second is that I do think Messi should not be asked to or made to or even allowed to play every minute of every game. Moreover I think we should as a team develop more confidence of playing very well even when without Messi. As it stands today if Messi is not available people will perhaps assume Barca have no chance. As I have said many times before I hate being called a one man team.

The third is a recurring thought in my mind which I completely understand and accept does not get much support from almost anyone but refuses to go out of my head. That is that the false number 9 has outlived its existence. When it worked nothing could be better but in the last few months I haven't seen it working as well. There seems to be a vital need for someone to be there who will get at the end of things.

Like alex I would request people to note that I have no intention of criticizing Messi. He is the best player in the world today and one of the best of all time. He has given us too many outstanding moments to be very grateful for and which will live on in our memories. These comments are solely based on the principle that the team comes first.

messixaviesta
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 4207
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 43

http://twitter.com/messixaviesta , http://footballbydeepak.blogs

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by BarcaKizz Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:56 pm

Some excellent points here and a good discussion started by Alex.

After that last Clasico I was thinking 'Omg there is so much space in behind our defenders'. It looks even as if they are pushing up higher than usual, but they aren't its just the protection isn't there.

I think the natural reaction is 'Yes, drop it back' and tbf I do think its something we should do once in a while. When we are getting bent over and raped by balls in behind you've got to drop a bit deeper and close down the passes.

Great to identify the Messi problem and I have to say I agree 100% with what Dani says and then JD has elaborated a little.

He's not bigger than the team and someone just has to tell him to press more. I really hate this thing where he doesn't ever get subbed... Ffs, every player loves to play. I would hope that if we took him off every now and again and rested him he wouldn't be so pissed off that he'd want to leave us right? That would be really poor attitude. He says 'I always want to play', but I'm sure so do many other players. Just take him off. Like Dani said, 'conserving energy' is BS. I don't believe in it, run yourself hard and then get subbed if you're tired.

Like a few have said, Messi was once actually a great presser... one of the best. Typically Argentine like Tevez and Aguero. However, last year and a bit he hasn't so much.

Like JD has said, I'd also like to see Tito try to develop confidence in an option of playing without Messi. What happens if we lose Messi? Are we just screwed? I would hope not, but if we just continually build around him and look to him then no matter how good our other players are, when he's not there they aren't going to know what to do. We need to, not develop this BS 'Plan B', but we do need to find a way to just play the same without him. It just means we lack the Messi brilliance, but we should still be a great team.

All in all, I would agree that dropping the line might have to be done every now and again, but Messi also has to do more work. We have a big squad now, so I expect everyone to work and push up front.


PS: Villa is an excellent presser, not just Alexis and Pedro.
BarcaKizz
BarcaKizz
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 3406
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by Jonathan28 Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:21 pm

If we got rid of the false nine I would be the last person to complain. I was fine with it when Pep used it on occasions like in the 2009 CL final when Man Utd didn't know how to deal with it, but now it's used every game, and I'm afraid teams may have found a way to deal with it. When it works against small teams its a delight to watch, but the big boys can stifle it now.

It doesn't help that during many attacks theres hardly anyone in the box like there used to be a few years back. It also seems to be a cause of Cesc looking lost in midfield due to Messi occupying the area he plays in. Like I said earlier, either Messi becomes an full out Centre foward with Cesc behind him, or he goes back to the right wing. It's fine and all having Messi play in a position which he thinks is his best, but not at the cost of other players.

Sometimes I envy Real Madrid, even though they have Ronaldo Mou has done a cracking job of not having the team totally focused around him.

Jonathan28
Jonathan28
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 1917
Join date : 2011-07-31
Age : 30

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by alexjanosik Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:54 pm

Fabregas looking clueless and useless has nothing to do with Messi.He is garbage.End of.Nothing to do with Messi.
Regarding the false 9.I think its an excellent tactic.And I think we need to continue with it.The only problem is that we need the right players flanking Messi.With Pedro and Villa flanking Messi,I think it will work brilliantly.
Problem is that due to injury troubles Villa and Pedro have not played together.We have had to rely on Alexis who is useless out wide.
With MVP playing,the false 9 will work perfectly.
I dont agree with Messi as a pure CF.He is far too good a player to just play in the box.

alexjanosik
First Team
First Team

Posts : 3236
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by DuringTheWar Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:34 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Fabregas looking clueless and useless has nothing to do with Messi.He is garbage.End of.Nothing to do with Messi.

doesnt fit your system = garbage?

give us 40mil again and we will be happy to take the garbage back
DuringTheWar
DuringTheWar
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Arsenal
Posts : 2870
Join date : 2012-01-03

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by messixaviesta Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:12 pm

kizz, wonderful post.

alex, I agree that with MVP it worked like a charm but will Villa ever be back to playing day in day out in the same way as before? Luckily Pedro looks nearly back to his best.




messixaviesta
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 4207
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 43

http://twitter.com/messixaviesta , http://footballbydeepak.blogs

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by The Franchise Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:49 pm

I dont get this call for getting rid of the false 9.

In what way is it not working?
The Franchise
The Franchise
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 19651
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 36

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:00 am

What I don't entirely understand is why some people are assuming that Messi has suddenly turned lazy based only in 2 matches. Today, for example, he did press. So he's not unwilling to do it. Since that is the main reason towards adopting a back-line, it seems that there's little reason to do it now.
BarrileteCosmico
BarrileteCosmico
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 27893
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by messixaviesta Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:03 am

The Franchise wrote:I dont get this call for getting rid of the false 9.

In what way is it not working?

dani, it's not a call, just a thought.

What I have seen quite often is great openings being made from the midfield but no one being able to be at the end of them. Hence at times it seems like a penalty box striker could help. Then again I completely understand the minute we consider that we have too many questions to answer and no matter what we do we will probably lose a few strengths of ours. That's why I said it's just a thought and nothing more. At the moment I can't advocate for doing it because I can't work out a system with a penalty box striker that would suit our style and players best. Tomorrow is a different matter though. To make the false number 9 work the off the ball movement in the forward line has to as good as it was in 2010-11. Will it again be that good? Maybe but I am not sure. Let's see what happens.


messixaviesta
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 4207
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 43

http://twitter.com/messixaviesta , http://footballbydeepak.blogs

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by BarcaKizz Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:42 am

A number of times in the past I've said that I think Alexis would play False9 quite well and the more and more I watch him I think it suits him more than the wing. For me he's definitely not a pure number 9 and not a winger, but can thrive in that area where Messi plays.

His game fits the bill, technically etc. He is actually very good in tight spaces and can hold men off and pass away and open spaces for others. His movement is good, his passing is quite underrated (we just think of him as the 'backpass guy' because on the wing thats what he does instead of dribble), he's an attacking threat and like some have said before, when he's forced to dribble he's normally not bad at it.

Of course, Messi plays false9, but we've been discussing that Messi could take a rest now and then, at least sub off once in a while. He can even rotate a bit with Alexis whilst on the field (last year against Valencia they did this a bit, I thought it was Alexis' best game). So I'd like to see Alexis play there when Messi isn't.

This call also comes about because I think the kid plays too much generally. As soon as Villa comes back, I want him and Pedro there in every big game and as much as possible. Cuenca, Tello, Alba and Adriano all offer options on the wing as well and are all just as good at times.

Alexis could play less on the wing and little more in the centre to give Leo a rest.

Pedro/Cuenca - Messi/Alexis - Villa/Tello
BarcaKizz
BarcaKizz
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 3406
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 31

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by messixaviesta Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:08 am

BarcaKizz wrote:
Pedro/Cuenca - Messi/Alexis - Villa/Tello

Nice post kizz. Incidentally this structuring of players is exactly how I have defined our squad in the squad thread.


messixaviesta
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 4207
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 43

http://twitter.com/messixaviesta , http://footballbydeepak.blogs

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by The Franchise Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:49 am

Understood JD. To me though, its a tactic, one as fundemental as playing a lone pivot in Busquets. There are other ways to go, but I feel its the best one. We get to overload the midfield and aslong as the movement from the front is there, 2 fullbacks ready to make overlaps then I will always create goal chances.

The Franchise
The Franchise
Admin
Admin

Club Supported : Real Madrid
Posts : 19651
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 36

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by messixaviesta Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:13 am

The Franchise wrote:Understood JD. To me though, its a tactic, one as fundemental as playing a lone pivot in Busquets. There are other ways to go, but I feel its the best one. We get to overload the midfield and aslong as the movement from the front is there, 2 fullbacks ready to make overlaps then I will always create goal chances.

Perhaps it now is but in 2008-09 we didn't play that tactic but we still played our style. I would say we played our style then even more than we are doing now. So in future it may just be worth a thought but not much more than that because like I said changing that causes it's own set of complications.


messixaviesta
First Team
First Team

Club Supported : Barcelona
Posts : 4207
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 43

http://twitter.com/messixaviesta , http://footballbydeepak.blogs

Back to top Go down

Should our defensive line be dropped back? Empty Re: Should our defensive line be dropped back?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum