Courtois vs De Gea vs Szczęsny

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Post by rwo power on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:25 am

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Just one mans opinion. Mostly it has to do with me watching more of de Gea than Sommer (in fact I've watched Yann only 4 times, twice vs. Bayern, once vs. ManU, and his debut internationally). Really from a personally point view, going with what I've seen of these guys, I would say my ranking is pretty accurate.
Well, I have watched almost all Basel matches since February this year, so I'm probably a bit biased in the other direction Very Happy

But my point is more that it is a bit weird to actually give absolute rankings as it is hard to rank class and form is notoriously variable ^^

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Post by Arquitecto on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:06 pm

@rwo power wrote:
Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Have to agree those saying Ter Stegen is the best.

1. Ter Stegen
2. De Gea
3. Guaita (He's not as young as the rest, but fairly young at 25)
4. Szczesny/Courtois
5. Leno/Fahrmann/Zieler
6. Sommer/Unnerstall/Butland
I think absolute rankings are usually not really a sensible thing. I mean, why would you put De Géa comparatively far above Sommer, if you consider that last year both were voted into the UEFA U21 Team of the tournament for a reason and the latter normally normally is the reason that Basel don't get taken apart one after the other time? If it is one or the other individual mistake - that can happen, and de Géa had those, too. Heck, not even Neuer or Buffon or Casillas are 100% error free!


His ratings are justified simply because De Gea at a younger age has been playing at a far higher level of football than Sommer who's Swiss League exploits will convince very few.
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UEFA Super Cup (1): 2010
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The individual and team accomplishments of David who has been vital for in all matches for his teams while Sommer is yet to displace even Diego Benaglio.

Sadly both are actually very prone to individual mistakes yet De Gea takes it over his performances along with having them done at a higher level.

OT:

1. Guaita (Incredibly underrated)
2. De Gea
3. Ter Stegen/Szczeny
4. Courtois.

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Post by rwo power on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:12 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:The individual and team accomplishments of David who has been vital for in all matches for his teams while Sommer is yet to displace even Diego Benaglio.
There you don't mention that de Gea has not played in the Spanish senior team at all (he was only in the teams up to U21 till now) while Benaglio is the no 1 of the Swiss seniors. Sommer was the captain of the U21 which only came second to the Spanish U21 and he kept all clean sheets until the final.

@Arquitecto wrote:Sadly both are actually very prone to individual mistakes yet De Gea takes it over his performances along with having them done at a higher level.
On the other hand, Sommer's top performances were in the champion's league last season, so you can't really say that he didn't play at a high level.

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Post by Arquitecto on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:21 pm

@rwo power wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:The individual and team accomplishments of David who has been vital for in all matches for his teams while Sommer is yet to displace even Diego Benaglio.
There you don't mention that de Gea has not played in the Spanish senior team at all (he was only in the teams up to U21 till now) while Benaglio is the no 1 of the Swiss seniors. Sommer was the captain of the U21 which only came second to the Spanish U21 and he kept all clean sheets until the final.

@Arquitecto wrote:Sadly both are actually very prone to individual mistakes yet De Gea takes it over his performances along with having them done at a higher level.
On the other hand, Sommer's top performances were in the champion's league last season, so you can't really say that he didn't play at a high level.


There is an oceans difference between competition in the Spanish National Team and the Swiss NT.

De Gea has to compete with Pepe Reina and Victor Valdes both who on form are considered World Class. Of course ahead of all is Iker Casillas who is the 2nd best if not the best GK in the world after Gigi. It is far far more difficult to compete with them then it is with a team with lower standards and Benaglio (who is good but not WC).

Sommer was impressive in the CL last year yet that doesn't hide his poor performances against Galati, Benfica and the horrorshow of Bayern (2nd leg of course, 1st leg was a masterclass).

Point isn't to pan Sommer who has long gone under the radar yet the point is De Gea has displayed higher levels of talent (arguable obviously) but done it at a younger age and has played a more vital role in his teams successes. Not only that he has justified that by winning trophies and cups at a higher level and for a longer time.



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Post by rwo power on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:33 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:There is an oceans difference between competition in the Spanish National Team and the Swiss NT.

De Gea has to compete with Pepe Reina and Victor Valdes both who on form are considered World Class. Of course ahead of all is Iker Casillas who is the 2nd best if not the best GK in the world after Gigi. It is far far more difficult to compete with them then it is with a team with lower standards and Benaglio (who is good but not WC).

Sommer was impressive in the CL last year yet that doesn't hide his poor performances against Galati, Benfica and the horrorshow of Bayern (2nd leg of course, 1st leg was a masterclass).

Point isn't to pan Sommer who has long gone under the radar yet the point is De Gea has displayed higher levels of talent (arguable obviously) but done it at a younger age and has played a more vital role in his teams successes. Not only that he has justified that by winning trophies and cups at a higher level and for a longer time.
Well, Spain has Casillas, Valdes and Reina, so de Géa hasn't been called up at all. But then, personally I don't think that either Valdes or Reina are so exceptional, thus getting past one of them should be doable if de Géa is as good as you say. (IMO Valdés individually is mainly protected by Barca's fantastic possession play, and I do remember that Reina was error prone, too).

In the Swiss team, Diego Benaglio so far is the undisputed number 1 as Hitzfeld trusts in him most and he values him for his experience. With 29 years, he unfortunately is in the best age for a GK right now, so getting past him will be probably as difficult for Sommer as it will be for de Géa to get past Casillas.

And if you mention individual mistakes by Sommer - well, de Géa had his share of individual mistakes, too. I have read a bit in RedCafe for fun and the people there wanted to crucify him at times.

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Post by Arquitecto on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:03 pm

@rwo power wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:There is an oceans difference between competition in the Spanish National Team and the Swiss NT.

De Gea has to compete with Pepe Reina and Victor Valdes both who on form are considered World Class. Of course ahead of all is Iker Casillas who is the 2nd best if not the best GK in the world after Gigi. It is far far more difficult to compete with them then it is with a team with lower standards and Benaglio (who is good but not WC).

Sommer was impressive in the CL last year yet that doesn't hide his poor performances against Galati, Benfica and the horrorshow of Bayern (2nd leg of course, 1st leg was a masterclass).

Point isn't to pan Sommer who has long gone under the radar yet the point is De Gea has displayed higher levels of talent (arguable obviously) but done it at a younger age and has played a more vital role in his teams successes. Not only that he has justified that by winning trophies and cups at a higher level and for a longer time.
Well, Spain has Casillas, Valdes and Reina, so de Géa hasn't been called up at all. But then, personally I don't think that either Valdes or Reina are so exceptional, thus getting past one of them should be doable if de Géa is as good as you say. (IMO Valdés individually is mainly protected by Barca's fantastic possession play, and I do remember that Reina was error prone, too).

In the Swiss team, Diego Benaglio so far is the undisputed number 1 as Hitzfeld trusts in him most and he values him for his experience. With 29 years, he unfortunately is in the best age for a GK right now, so getting past him will be probably as difficult for Sommer as it will be for de Géa to get past Casillas.

And if you mention individual mistakes by Sommer - well, de Géa had his share of individual mistakes, too. I have read a bit in RedCafe for fun and the people there wanted to crucify him at times.

Valdes and Reina's current view may be distorted since both are horrendously off form yet this doesn't change the magnificent performances they have put up throughout the years and how integral they have been to their own teams. You may not rate both of them yet the general consensus is the superior perspective as it tells a lot about their GK skill. The highly esteemed opinions are a testament to both of their ability when on form.

The Valdes being protected by the Barca possession spiel is a myth as whenever called upon to perform for his team in the back he has performed superbly and is hands down the best GK in one on one situations.

I can't see how you can compare De Gea's international situation with Sommer's. Not only De Gea has to compete with Casillas, but he has to compete with 2 GK both who are better and more proven than Benaglio but the team (and squandra) as a whole have a far higher standard set for themselves as its almost irrelevant comparing Swiss NT competition with the Spanish NT.

Example: Santi Cazorla is World Class yet isn't starting in his midfield for Espana while someone like Martin Harnik of Austria finds it far easier to start for his NT than Santi for Espana.

At the moment Sommer should forget about even Benaglio and focus on getting ahead of pecking order from Woellfi who despite his age is a wonderful keeper and has been so for Young Boys.

Don't get me wrong, De Gea is incredibly mistake prone yet this is an co-occurrence that has been amplified since he has joined Man Utd given the immense pressure of his club switch and price tag. Confidence is low at the moment yet he has equally fared with some stunning performances for them.

I personally ask you as a favour to call up Zoff or Kahn and give lessons to De Gea on commanding his box because at times he is all too meek. Although this is understandable given the communication barrier and confidence singularity that must be found in his new tenure at UTD.


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Post by rwo power on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:21 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Valdes and Reina's current view may be distorted since both are horrendously off form yet this doesn't change the magnificent performances they have put up throughout the years and how integral they have been to their own teams. You may not rate both of them yet the general consensus is the superior perspective as it tells a lot about their GK skill. The highly esteemed opinions are a testament to both of their ability when on form.
Well, then they should try to get back on form ASAP as it is a bit risky to rely on two currently off-form keepers as back-ups.

@Arquitecto wrote:The Valdes being protected by the Barca possession spiel is a myth as whenever called upon to perform for his team in the back he has performed superbly and is hands down the best GK in one on one situations.
From what I remember recently, Valdes did have a couple of gaffes, though, which were rather costly for his club.

@Arquitecto wrote:I can't see how you can compare De Gea's international situation with Sommer's. Not only De Gea has to compete with Casillas, but he has to compete with 2 GK both who are better and more proven than Benaglio but the team (and squandra) as a whole have a far higher standard set for themselves as its almost irrelevant comparing Swiss NT competition with the Spanish NT.
That is because you have to compare the actual situation of both and that *is* comparable. You can't look at absolutes, but you have to look at the respective environments. Sommer isn't competing for a spot in the Spanish NT, but in the Swiss NT. Within the Swiss NT there is a pecking order, too and to get to the top spot there you have to fight your way up there just like in the Spanish NT. And if there is an established top dog blocking the way, it doesn't matter if it is Casillas for de Géa or Benaglio for Sommer - the problem is just the same.

@Arquitecto wrote:At the moment Sommer should forget about even Benaglio and focus on getting ahead of pecking order from Woellfi who despite his age is a wonderful keeper and has been so for Young Boys.
As a matter of fact, he is doing right that. FCB-tv just published an interview with him yesterday where the NT situation was discussed, too, and Sommer is a totally down to earth guy: http://www.fcb.ch/articles/show/paragraph/-/-/2677/108/11/81/2686#cntFrm

@Arquitecto wrote:I personally ask you as a favour to call up Zoff or Kahn and give lessons to De Gea on commanding his box because at times he is all too meek. Although this is understandable given the communication barrier and confidence singularity that must be found in his new tenure at UTD.
I'd love to do that, but I fear they won't listen to me Very Happy

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Post by Arquitecto on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:39 pm

Well, then they should try to get back on form ASAP as it is a bit risky to rely on two currently off-form keepers as back-ups.

Oh RWO don't get me started on VDB's poor poor selection policy. Nonetheless he is one to believe in his long time player's ability in his faith for finding their form back. Its not such an alarming issue as both have performed soundly when called upon nonetheless in Iker's absence.


From what I remember recently, Valdes did have a couple of gaffes, though, which were rather costly for his club.

Valdes has had many gaffes indeed as his SuperCOPA horrorshow is a prime example. But this cannot hide from his success over the years he has produced when expected to perform. In the end GKs as a whole are error prone yet its only equivocal to their self-doubt and form to how many they make.




That is because you have to compare the actual situation of both and that *is* comparable. You can't look at absolutes, but you have to look at the respective environments. Sommer isn't competing for a spot in the Spanish NT, but in the Swiss NT. Within the Swiss NT there is a pecking order, too and to get to the top spot there you have to fight your way up there just like in the Spanish NT. And if there is an established top dog blocking the way, it doesn't matter if it is Casillas for de Géa or Benaglio for Sommer - the problem is just the same.

These absolutes are provided since I'm assuming you compared Sommer's situation with De Gea's for fighting for their own respective NTs. If I'm correct you brought the point on how De Gea hasn't earned a spot for his NT while Sommer is relatively close to his own. Without getting into a muddled confusion all I can say is that De Gea will find it harder to compete for a 1st spot than Sommer will for the Swiss NT.

Off the record I think Benaglio should now be increasingly rotating with Sommer who has impressed just as much. But I can't argue with Hitzfeld obviously. Maybe der General still has Diego's superb Wolfsburg campaign in his mind.

However, I will concede that Sommer over the past 2 years has been better than De Gea but this is a discussion for another day.

As a matter of fact, he is doing right that. FCB-tv just published an interview with him yesterday where the NT situation was discussed, too, and Sommer is a totally down to earth guy: http://www.fcb.ch/articles/show/paragraph/-/-/2677/108/11/81/2686#cntFrm


Ah if my German wasn't in such a nascent stage I would have understood most of what Yann was saying. I do notice his difference in dialect as he tends to speak more of the schweizerdeutsch side. From most of what I saw he does seem sure of himself and down to earth so we both can thank the heavens that he isn't a Tim Weise.




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Post by rwo power on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:04 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Oh RWO don't get me started on VDB's poor poor selection policy. Nonetheless he is one to believe in his long time player's ability in his faith for finding their form back. Its not such an alarming issue as both have performed soundly when called upon nonetheless in Iker's absence.
Looks like that's a recurring problem with NT coaches XD

@Arquitecto wrote:In the end GKs as a whole are error prone yet its only equivocal to their self-doubt and form to how many they make.
Well, GKs are humans, too, and I doubt they make more errors than any other player on the pitch. The problem is just that GK errors usually are more costly than the errors of a midfielder or striker.

@Arquitecto wrote:These absolutes are provided since I'm assuming you compared Sommer's situation with De Gea's for fighting for their own respective NTs. If I'm correct you brought the point on how De Gea hasn't earned a spot for his NT while Sommer is relatively close to his own. Without getting into a muddled confusion all I can say is that De Gea will find it harder to compete for a 1st spot than Sommer will for the Swiss NT.
Right now it doesn't seem as if Hitzfeld would consider dethroning Benaglio, though, as much as I would hope to see Sommer between the sticks of the Swiss Nati.

@Arquitecto wrote:Off the record I think Benaglio should now be increasingly rotating with Sommer who has impressed just as much. But I can't argue with Hitzfeld obviously. Maybe der General still has Diego's superb Wolfsburg campaign in his mind.
And of course you can't fault Benaglio for much as Switzerland usually mainly lacked in scoring goals, not in blocking them.

@Arquitecto wrote:
As a matter of fact, he is doing right that. FCB-tv just published an interview with him yesterday where the NT situation was discussed, too, and Sommer is a totally down to earth guy: http://www.fcb.ch/articles/show/paragraph/-/-/2677/108/11/81/2686#cntFrm
Ah if my German wasn't in such a nascent stage I would have understood most of what Yann was saying. I do notice his difference in dialect as he tends to speak more of the schweizerdeutsch side. From most of what I saw he does seem sure of himself and down to earth so we both can thank the heavens that he isn't a Tim Weise.
Absolutely!! XD BTW, if he were a Tim Wiese type, I would certainly not bother supporting him ^^

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Post by sree999 on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:50 pm

De Gea vs Courtis BUMP

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Post by jibers on Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:53 pm

Thought De Gea then, think De gea now. Once he improved his aerial prowess the stopped being a debate. Better reflexes, better at one on ones and Courtois still hasn't improved on his long shot weakness.

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Post by Rebaño Sagrado on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:19 pm

Not much seperate them, but I prefer De Gea. Chestnut, however is on a different level. (:

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Post by Myesyats on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:41 pm

I prefer De Gea but it's close.
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Post by Freeza on Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:52 pm

Real Madrid legend De Gea is my choice

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:00 pm

De Gea is one of the most overrated players of our time tbh.

The kid is good but so far nothing special whatsoever.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:57 pm

Chesney rofl
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Post by À bout de souffle on Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:46 pm

I see Guaita's received a mention. Laughing

@Hapless_Hans wrote:De Gea is one of the most overrated players of our time tbh.

The kid is good but so far nothing special whatsoever.

+1
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Post by futbol on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:02 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:De Gea is one of the most overrated players of our time tbh.

The kid is good but so far nothing special whatsoever.


It's because he's the only good performer United have in their team right now so they (= the huge United fanbase and the English media controlled by SAF (: ) automatically elevate him to even greater heights than he deserves. On Redcafe a huge portion of their fans already have him as a top 2 goalkeeper "not far behind Neuer but will soon surpass him" and top 10 player in the world. Laughing

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:14 pm

Fußball wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:De Gea is one of the most overrated players of our time tbh.

The kid is good but so far nothing special whatsoever.


It's because he's the only good performer United have in their team right now so they (= the huge United fanbase and the English media controlled by SAF (: ) automatically elevate him to even greater heights than he deserves. On Redcafe a huge portion of their fans already have him as a top 2 goalkeeper "not far behind Neuer but will soon surpass him" and top 10 player in the world. Laughing


Exactly.

Utd fans along with the English pbulic had a tough time reconciling the worlds biggest club with being all around mediocre footballing wise.
So something's got to give, in this case De Gea had to be WORLD CLASS.

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Post by jibers on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:18 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
Exactly.

Utd fans along with the English pbulic had a tough time reconciling the worlds biggest club with being all around mediocre footballing wise.
So something's got to give, in this case De Gea had to be WORLD CLASS.


This thread is about who is better between De Gea and Courtois. What an odd rant. Respond to thread title or gtfo.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:24 pm

What do you care? De Gea isn't a Utd player anymore hmm

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Post by futbol on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:What do you care? De Gea isn't a Utd player anymore hmm


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Post by Valkyrja on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:23 pm

Neuer is more overrated in general than De Gea is.

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Post by jibers on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:40 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:What do you care? De Gea isn't a Utd player anymore hmm


Irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the topic. Answer it and stop derailing the thread. If you don't want to then don't post. It's not *bleep* rocket science.

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Post by futbol on Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:41 pm

Rocket science is quite easy by the way.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:04 am

De Gea was the best player in the league this year.

Only haters will try to argue it.
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