Messi's, Müller's, Pelé's goal scoring seasons era adjusted

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Post by The Verminator Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:25 am

yea that's true. So i think we can agree that Messi's season (despite the fact i don't like him) was more impressive. Unless someone has something to say about this.....

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Post by la bestia negra Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:45 am

But HGH wasn't present back then Sad
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Post by Harmonica Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:12 am

Robbery wrote:But HGH wasn't present back then Sad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone_treatment

"GH therapy has been a focus of social and ethical controversies for 50 years...Extracted growth hormone was used since late 1950s until late 1980s when its use was replaced by recombinant GH."
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:31 pm

The Verminator wrote:yea that's true. So i think we can agree that Messi's season (despite the fact i don't like him) was more impressive. Unless someone has something to say about this.....

I think this adjustment is quite interesting, but its not the only factor to decide who's season was more impressive. There all kinds of other stuff to think about as well like who scored the most opening goals in a match? who scored the most match winners? who scored the most from outside the penalty area? who scored the least tap ins? who scored the least penalties? who scored a higher percentage of the total goals their team scored? if one player scores 1 goal in a 1-0 win against a title challenger, and the other player score the 4th 5th and 6th goals in an 8-0 blow out against cannon fodder which is actually more impressive? these are questions i've just thought of right now and there are probably a lot more as well

The truth is to say one is more impressive than the other, you cant look just at the numbers, you have to actually WATCH both season, this is quite obvious really



One thing i will say is that pele was absolutely ruthless in a variety of ways, ie he could score all kinds of goals from almost anywhere on the pitch. I mean if you see him winding up for a shot 30 yards from goal, he had fans already thinking this is going to be a goal, messi doesnt have anywhere near as much power. If my team needed a goal i would choose pele over messi
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Post by Harmonica Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:55 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
The Verminator wrote:yea that's true. So i think we can agree that Messi's season (despite the fact i don't like him) was more impressive. Unless someone has something to say about this.....

I think this adjustment is quite interesting, but its not the only factor to decide who's season was more impressive. There all kinds of other stuff to think about as well like who scored the most opening goals in a match? who scored the most match winners? who scored the most from outside the penalty area? who scored the least tap ins? who scored the least penalties? who scored a higher percentage of the total goals their team scored? if one player scores 1 goal in a 1-0 win against a title challenger, and the other player score the 4th 5th and 6th goals in an 8-0 blow out against cannon fodder which is actually more impressive? these are questions i've just thought of right now and there are probably a lot more as well

The truth is to say one is more impressive than the other, you cant look just at the numbers, you have to actually WATCH both season, this is quite obvious really

One thing i will say is that pele was absolutely ruthless in a variety of ways, ie he could score all kinds of goals from almost anywhere on the pitch. I mean if you see him winding up for a shot 30 yards from goal, he had fans already thinking this is going to be a goal, messi doesnt have anywhere near as much power. If my team needed a goal i would choose pele over messi
Yes I agree the type of goals matter also. But the thing is Messi is probably the most individualistic goal scorer ever. I mean he builds up most of his own goals. Comparison to RvP and Cronaldo reveals the individualism, and they are not even pure strikers, like example Müller was.

2011-2012
Messi 73 goals, 18/73 or 25% penalty/tapin, 44% directly assisted. 35 assists.
Cronaldo 60 goals, 21/60 or 35% penalty/tapin, 72% directly assisted. 15 assists.
RvP 37 goals, 12/37 or 32% penalty/tapin, 81% directly assisted. 14 assists.

2010-2011
Messi 53 goals, 9/53 or 17% penalty/tapin, 53% directly assisted. 28 assists.
Cronaldo 53 goals, 20/53 or 38% penalty/tapin, 75% directly assisted. 18 assists.

Also Messi can score pretty much anywhere from the field, by dribbling everybody. You also don't have to shoot from 30 yards, you can dribble one player and shoot from inside 25 yards where Messi becomes lethal.
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Post by danyjr Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:32 pm

Will people ever stop comparing people from two completely different eras? You simply do not compare Roger Federer to William Renshaw in tennis.

Messi is the best of his era, and we probably won't see one like him for a few decades. His consistency, instinct and completeness is second to none. And who can, apart from Chelsea defenders, claim they haven't been raped by him at least once? Only players who haven't played against him yet.
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:37 pm

Yeah messi is great at dribbling and all that but most times it doesnt actually lead to a goal, just give pele the ball and he bangs it in the net no fuss Very Happy

my point is pele was better at actually shooting, more efficiency/effectiveness, on that basis hes more impressive at goalscoring imo, even though messi is magic at running into dangerous areas

edit:@dannyjr yes its difficult to compare player achievements from different eras, even players that play in the same era but in different teams it can be difficult to compare their respective achievements. But if you saw them play enough then you CAN compare their ability/talent/characteristics/performance/ and influence on games even if they are from different eras
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Post by billionmillion Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:47 pm

Maradona fan shut up and gtfo i'm tired of seeing you in every messi bash fest
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Post by danyjr Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:50 pm

Messi's, Müller's, Pelé's goal scoring seasons era adjusted - Page 3 Ubmfo

Is that who I think he is?
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Post by DuringTheWar Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:57 pm

bm why do you try to turn everything into a trollfest? im not bashing messi im praising pele, you know because messi is not the only guy to ever play football, you know this right?

danyjr if you think its jack wilshere then yes Wink
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Post by billionmillion Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:20 am

whoever vs messi you praise him. what is wrong with you? seems like CR you are also obsessed with messi. are you maradona's wife?
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:30 am

New forum rule: Refrain from praising anyone but messi so you dont hurt billionmillions feelings....

are you messis bitch?
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Post by billionmillion Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:50 am

Who said dont praise anyone? its not praising its comparing with messi. nobody in this forum makes messi comparisons as much as you. and you are always in opposite side as if messi finished on your boobs. obsessed wife you are
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:02 am

Messi's, Müller's, Pelé's goal scoring seasons era adjusted - Page 3 Cool-s10
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Post by Harmonica Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:46 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Yeah messi is great at dribbling and all that but most times it doesnt actually lead to a goal, just give pele the ball and he bangs it in the net no fuss Very Happy

my point is pele was better at actually shooting, more efficiency/effectiveness, on that basis hes more impressive at goalscoring imo, even though messi is magic at running into dangerous areas
Well Messi banged it 82 (club+nt) times this season into the net, most of anybody ever, Pele included.

Do you have statistics on the shooting? I don't really buy into that Pele scored that many goals, because he was so good at shooting. You make it sound like he scored all his goals like from 30 meters. He got service into the area just like most of great goal scorers.
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:27 pm

Messi was up against sad jokes as opposition for much parts, though. Not that he's not the best player in the world right now, it's just that I'm a bit hard-pressed to take the whole goals-per-match-stat-attack too seriously, as well as the stupid era-adjustment. The 70s for example had some incredibly leg-breaking defending, the injury threat alone...

Messi is the best player of his generation, but just as he emerged about the time Zidane left, by the time Messi draws close to his retirement, someone, maybe it'll be Nerman or Götze, maybe someone who we haven't heard of yet, maybe even freakign Wheelchair, will fill the gap.

There has always been at least one incredibly ridiculous player active, more than one for the most part.
Beckenbauer was active in the same period as Cruyff and Müller, Pele close enough to Puskas, Oliver Kahn and Gigi Buffon played for much of the same time, van Nistelrooy and Raul are almost the same age, Maradona played against Mathäus - just because Ronaldo lacks the football brain to really threaten Messi doesn't mean that Messi can't be stopped.

Greatest player in the world, but there is always a greatest player in the world, and just like people were saying that Zidane is better than Cruyff, soon there'll be someone else with a weirdly spelled name half of us will call better than Messi. And we might be right. Or not.

/rant
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Post by danyjr Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:19 pm

The difference is none of these players you mentioned were as consistent as Messi. Zidane was a great player but not the greatest of his generation because I also remember players like Kaká, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Henry and Vieira who are up there with him.

Messi is only 24 and he's been one of the 3 Ballon d'Or nominees for 5 consecutive years, winning it consecutively for three years (probably four years next year) in a row. If that is not extraordinary to anyone, wait until he retires. I want to see the next guy that dominates football for so long, but I doubt if my life will be long enough to see that.

Players like Messi don't happen often. Why fight it instead of enjoy it while it lasts?
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:32 pm

Because at least half of the Messi-hype is due to the incredible wankfest the media, FIFA and UEFA have started about attacking players in general, and Barcelonas boring as shit tiki-taka.

Just look at the freaking Euros, CR7 scores twice and is f*cking man of the tournament in half the pundits books, nobody even talking about the glory that was Agger.

Messi is great, he's the best, but there's also the problem that he plays in pretty much the best team, and everyone's got a hard-on for dribbling flair players, everyone else gets put down as "just a good poacher", or "a methodic defender, helped by the system" - as if Messi didn't get any service.
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:33 pm

Also when you mention that Zidane was up against the likes of Henry, Kaka, Ronaldo etc., that really doesn't make Messi any better, that just makes him stand out more because of lack of competition.

And that was my entire point. Wait a year or two, the competition will come again.
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Post by danyjr Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:51 pm

1- It is harder to attack than defend.
2- It is harder to dribble than to stop a dribbler.
3- Messi is standing out because the rest of the players in his era are average? What about Ronaldo, Van Persie, Rooney, Iniesta, Drogba, Xavi, Ribéry, Özil, Robben, Müller, Sneijder, Ibrahimović, Schweinsteiger etc. If he is much better than the aforementioned, it is not because these guys are bad, in fact they are absolutely world class players. It is just Messi is THAT good and much more importantly he is super consistent.
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Post by The Verminator Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:14 pm

danyjr wrote:1- It is harder to attack than defend.
2- It is harder to dribble than to stop a dribbler.
3- Messi is standing out because the rest of the players in his era are average? What about Ronaldo, Van Persie, Rooney, Iniesta, Drogba, Xavi, Ribéry, Özil, Robben, Müller, Sneijder, Ibrahimović, Schweinsteiger etc. If he is much better than the aforementioned, it is not because these guys are bad, in fact they are absolutely world class players. It is just Messi is THAT good and much more importantly he is super consistent.
1. No. It's easier to attack. You have to move in accordance with your backline alot more than a striker has to move in accordance with someone else. As a defender you MUST have eyes at the back of your head (metaphorically). Too much s*** to take into consideration. Making a successful offside trap alone is tough enough.

2. Once again no. It is easier to dribble than stop a dribble. Yes you must be aware of defenders from behind sure. But defenders got it tougher. Do you close them down? Is there someone who e could potentially pass to? Is there someone covering him? Can this guy give a through ball pass the defence? Will this guy cross or cut in? Too much to think of.

Atleast this is my opinion.
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Post by danyjr Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 pm

If it was easier to dribble, to play attacking football, then why most teams play defensive football and there are only a handful of dribblers in every league.

Look at successful tackle ratio and then look at successful dribble ratio. You always see more successful tackles than dribbles, not to mention the number of times an attacker does not attempt to dribble because he will almost certainly be dispossessed.

And also if it was easier to attack then why most matches end up with low scorelines? Take these Euro tournaments for example, which has been extremely good in terms of number of goals scored compared to the last World Cup. 2.3 goals per game isn't high. I don't even want to compare it to a game like Basketball.
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Post by The Verminator Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:55 pm

danyjr wrote:If it was easier to dribble, to play attacking football, then why most teams play defensive football and there are only a handful of dribblers in every league.

Look at successful tackle ratio and then look at successful dribble ratio. You always see more successful tackles than dribbles, not to mention the number of times an attacker does not attempt to dribble because he will almost certainly be dispossessed.

And also if it was easier to attack then why most matches end up with low scorelines? Take these Euro tournaments for example, which has been extremely good in terms of number of goals scored compared to the last World Cup. 2.3 goals per game isn't high. I don't even want to compare it to a game like Basketball.
Stats do not show the whole picture. There is alot more to take into consideration for a defender when someone goes to make the dribble, and i certainly don't need to tell you the nightmare defenders have when they're up against Messi. And people don't mainly dribble too much because 1. it's easier to pass to someone else. 2. They will get burned for not getting past their man instead of passing it.

And why do most matches end up with low scorelines? Because it's football. Football is a low scoring game.

And btw most teams play defensive because if they don't have more men back, they get screwed. You're making it sound like i'm saying it's harder to defend than attack if your team is parking the bus. If your team is parking the bus then naturally it becomes easier because more people can cover for your mistakes.

And the pressure that defenders have on their shoulders is immense. If rooney misses an open goal, ah he should've had it. He'll get it next time. But if let's say Vermaelen makes this incredible blooper and someone scores, you know everyone is going to hear about it through the media
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:29 pm

jiopsi wrote:
Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Yeah messi is great at dribbling and all that but most times it doesnt actually lead to a goal, just give pele the ball and he bangs it in the net no fuss Very Happy

my point is pele was better at actually shooting, more efficiency/effectiveness, on that basis hes more impressive at goalscoring imo, even though messi is magic at running into dangerous areas
Well Messi banged it 82 (club+nt) times this season into the net, most of anybody ever, Pele included.

Do you have statistics on the shooting? I don't really buy into that Pele scored that many goals, because he was so good at shooting. You make it sound like he scored all his goals like from 30 meters. He got service into the area just like most of great goal scorers.

Well not really, when i say banged it in i mean powerful drives from long distances, i dont think messi does that much, most of his goals are finesse/placement. It doesnt matter a lot but in this discussion its important, pele did have a more powerful shot, and im not saying he scored all his goals from 30 meters, but pretty sure a lot more than messi.
I dont have statistics on the type of goals he scored, i have just seen some of his games, not a lot mind you, but enough to see what a threat he was from range. Nearly everytime he got within range of the penalty area and there was space to shoot in front of him it seemed to fly off his boot like a rifle nearly always on target and quite often into the net.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:27 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Yeah messi is great at dribbling and all that but most times it doesnt actually lead to a goal, just give pele the ball and he bangs it in the net no fuss Very Happy

my point is pele was better at actually shooting, more efficiency/effectiveness, on that basis hes more impressive at goalscoring imo, even though messi is magic at running into dangerous areas
Well Messi banged it 82 (club+nt) times this season into the net, most of anybody ever, Pele included.

Do you have statistics on the shooting? I don't really buy into that Pele scored that many goals, because he was so good at shooting. You make it sound like he scored all his goals like from 30 meters. He got service into the area just like most of great goal scorers.

Well not really, when i say banged it in i mean powerful drives from long distances, i dont think messi does that much, most of his goals are finesse/placement. It doesnt matter a lot but in this discussion its important, pele did have a more powerful shot, and im not saying he scored all his goals from 30 meters, but pretty sure a lot more than messi.
I dont have statistics on the type of goals he scored, i have just seen some of his games, not a lot mind you, but enough to see what a threat he was from range. Nearly everytime he got within range of the penalty area and there was space to shoot in front of him it seemed to fly off his boot like a rifle nearly always on target and quite often into the net.
Actually in this discussion it doesn't matter at all. This subject was comparing goal scorer to the average goal scorer of the season. You are as good goal scorer as how well can you take advantage of your own qualities. It doesn't matter if you score more with your left or right, or same amount with both. You say Pele banged it from 30 meters, I say Messi runs towards defenders ten meters and then bangs it from 20 meters. If it's a goal, it's the same result with same service.
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Post by Kev Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:57 pm

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU ACCURATELY MATHEMATICALLY QUANTIFY SUBJECTIVE INFORMATION?

The answer- you cannot.

You can argue Messi's better than Pele (absurd IMO), but not using bulldust like this.

SMH
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