Messi's, Müller's, Pelé's goal scoring seasons era adjusted

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Post by Forza Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:20 am

kiranr wrote:
Atleast you are arguing rationally and giving reasons for your claim Verm.

None of the others who have discredited era-adjustment have given a valid reason.

p.s. Sushi gave a valid reason though Very Happy
I did.

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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:29 am

Forza Rossoneri wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Atleast you are arguing rationally and giving reasons for your claim Verm.

None of the others who have discredited era-adjustment have given a valid reason.

p.s. Sushi gave a valid reason though Very Happy
I did.

Yeah, i saw it right now.

You know, sometimes it is possible to describe a situation using statistics. I do agree that the stats of a single year may not be accurate.

If you take a five year average of the eras and compare the situation, then i think the result will be fairly accurate. Of course, more the number of years added in the average years, more accurate the conclusions will be.

But it is just unfair to dismiss this logic outright. Jiopsi was actually quite smart is thinking about this adjustment.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:54 am

Lets make a Era adjusted stats to prove Pique >>Beckenbeuer LOL

This is idiotic concept and far from accurate.

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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:55 am

Adit wrote:Lets make a Era adjusted stats to prove Pique >>Beckenbeuer LOL

This is idiotic concept and far from accurate.


Why is it far from accurate?
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:02 am

kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:Lets make a Era adjusted stats to prove Pique >>Beckenbeuer LOL

This is idiotic concept and far from accurate.


Why is it far from accurate?

What is the concept behind this era adjusting? because supposedly the defenses were weak?

So were the supporting players and tactics.The attacking tactics as a whole is on a all new level now.

How about the quality of the ball of past? the equipment? the boots?

Heck How about the change in offside rule?

how is it even possible to say one is better than other or even compare them with Era adjustment Laughing

Just another Barca fan logics i see
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:07 am

Adit wrote:
What is the concept behind this era adjusting? because supposedly the defenses were weak?

So were the supporting players and tactics.The attacking tactics as a whole is on a all new level now.

How about the quality of the ball of past? the equipment? the boots?

Heck How about the change in offside rule?

how is it even possible to say one is better than other or even compare them with Era adjustment Laughing

Just another Barca fan logics i see

So if between 1980 and 1990, teams scored an average of 3 goals per game and between 2000-2010, teams scored an average of 1.5 goals per game, then according to you the conditions were the same in these two eras?

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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:14 am

kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:
What is the concept behind this era adjusting? because supposedly the defenses were weak?

So were the supporting players and tactics.The attacking tactics as a whole is on a all new level now.

How about the quality of the ball of past? the equipment? the boots?

Heck How about the change in offside rule?

how is it even possible to say one is better than other or even compare them with Era adjustment Laughing

Just another Barca fan logics i see

So if between 1980 and 1990, teams scored an average of 3 goals per game and between 2000-2010, teams scored an average of 1.5 goals per game, then according to you the conditions were the same in these two eras?


It still just shows the limit of statistics in games. I ll use my eyes first than statistics. Cristiano Ronaldo of past 3 season probably has as good of a goal per game ratio as any great player world has ever seen.

It is still bull. It is downright unfair to compare two players statsistics in two different leagues let alone two different eras.

Its completely laughable to compare the statistics of 60s and 2012 Laughing
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Post by Harmonica Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:22 am

It doesn't matter why they were scoring more then and less now. The adjustment just shows how much better you were than the average goal scorer at the time, and with that comparison Messi's 73 goals in 60 games is more impressive, or further away from the average, than example Pele's 66 goals in 46 games.
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:24 am

Adit wrote:
It still just shows the limit of statistics in games. I ll use my eyes first than statistics. Cristiano Ronaldo of past 3 season probably has as good of a goal per game ratio as any great player world has ever seen.

It is still bull. It is downright unfair to compare two players statsistics in two different leagues let alone two different eras.

Its completely laughable to compare the statistics of 60s and 2012 Laughing

CR's stats still show that he is a great goalscorer. That is undisputed.

What is the first thing my data shows? It shows that, as more goals were scored per game, teams scored more than the current era. This could be due to a number of reasons (some of it you mentioned). But it still does not take away the fact those goals were scored and over a period of time more goals were scored in that era than the current era.

So, given the above scenario, if player A scored 400 goals between 1980 and 1990 and player B scored 400 goals between 2000 and 2010, whose achievements could be considered greater? It would be player B.

You know how you can confirm this? Collect the number of goals scored by each player and rank it. And compare the number of players who scored a particular number of goals with each era. I assume the era which has greater goals per game will also have greater number of players at each level (eg 20, 25, 30 etc).

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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:31 am


A good analogy would be two students from 2 schools who scored 95% each in the final exam. However school A's average % is 80, whereas school B's average % is 87%. You can see that the achievements of the boy from school A is better than the boy form school B.
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Post by Forza Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:36 am

kiranr wrote:
Forza Rossoneri wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Atleast you are arguing rationally and giving reasons for your claim Verm.

None of the others who have discredited era-adjustment have given a valid reason.

p.s. Sushi gave a valid reason though Very Happy
I did.

Yeah, i saw it right now.

You know, sometimes it is possible to describe a situation using statistics. I do agree that the stats of a single year may not be accurate.

If you take a five year average of the eras and compare the situation, then i think the result will be fairly accurate. Of course, more the number of years added in the average years, more accurate the conclusions will be.

But it is just unfair to dismiss this logic outright. Jiopsi was actually quite smart is thinking about this adjustment.
There are too many variables to deal with though. Even when comparing players in the present day there are many variables, but throw in a 20 or 30 yr time gap to deal with as well and you get unhelpful results.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:37 am

kiranr wrote:
A good analogy would be two students from 2 schools who scored 95% each in the final exam. However school A's average % is 80, whereas school B's average % is 87%. You can see that the achievements of the boy from school A is better than the boy form school B.
Only if the final exam is different for each school.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:38 am

And more goals scored means bad defenses?

Let me say EPL has scored more goals than Bundesliga ,far more goals.IS EPL defence now weaker than Bundesliga?

This whole Era adjustment is simply based on clueless assumptions.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:40 am

It doesn't matter why they were scoring more then and less now. The adjustment just shows how much better you were than the average goal scorer at the time, and with that comparison Messi's 73 goals in 60 games is more impressive, or further away from the average, than example Pele's 66 goals in 46 games.

You understand this Adit?
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:42 am

Forza Rossoneri wrote:
There are too many variables to deal with though. Even when comparing players in the present day there are many variables, but throw in a 20 or 30 yr time gap to deal with as well and you get unhelpful results.

Those variables don't matter in this instance because we are looking at relative statistics rather than absolute statistics. We are comparing how much better each player performed over the average of era. And here Messi comes out on top.

Messi performed better than his peers than Pele or Muller could be the conclusion of this particular exercise.
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:43 am

Adit wrote:And more goals scored means bad defenses?

Let me say EPL has scored more goals than Bundesliga ,far more goals.IS EPL defence now weaker than Bundesliga?

This whole Era adjustment is simply based on clueless assumptions.

No, it may also be due to better strikers in the PL.

Really, you are not getting the point at all.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:47 am

kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:And more goals scored means bad defenses?

Let me say EPL has scored more goals than Bundesliga ,far more goals.IS EPL defence now weaker than Bundesliga?

This whole Era adjustment is simply based on clueless assumptions.

No, it may also be due to better strikers in the PL.

Really, you are not getting the point at all.

So the comparison is point less.

Better comparison will be Messi vs the strikers of his era.

Can you conclude Messi is better goal scorer than pele or Muller from this?
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:50 am

Adit wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:And more goals scored means bad defenses?

Let me say EPL has scored more goals than Bundesliga ,far more goals.IS EPL defence now weaker than Bundesliga?

This whole Era adjustment is simply based on clueless assumptions.

No, it may also be due to better strikers in the PL.

Really, you are not getting the point at all.

So the comparison is point less.

Better comparison will be Messi vs the strikers of his era.

Can you conclude Messi is better goal scorer than pele or Muller from this?

No, i can conclude that Messi scored more goals in an era where fewer goals per game were scored. That makes his achievement better than the other two.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:55 am

kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Adit wrote:And more goals scored means bad defenses?

Let me say EPL has scored more goals than Bundesliga ,far more goals.IS EPL defence now weaker than Bundesliga?

This whole Era adjustment is simply based on clueless assumptions.

No, it may also be due to better strikers in the PL.

Really, you are not getting the point at all.

So the comparison is point less.

Better comparison will be Messi vs the strikers of his era.

Can you conclude Messi is better goal scorer than pele or Muller from this?

No, i can conclude that Messi scored more goals in an era where fewer goals per game were scored. That makes his achievement better than the other two.

How will it make his achievement better than those two?

Do la liga as a whole has better strikers than those who played with pele and muller?

It comes down to league strenght and it is almost impossible to assume one league is better than the other with out watching both.
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:01 am

Adit wrote:
How will it make his achievement better than those two?

Do la liga as a whole has better strikers than those who played with pele and muller?

It comes down to league strenght and it is almost impossible to assume one league is better than the other with out watching both.

I am not saying Messi is a better goalscorer Adit. The reason for scoring fewer goals in the current era may be due to lack of good strikers or better defense or better defensive tactics or poor attacking tactics or rules that lead to fewer goals scored. Whatever the case, the difference between Messi's goals and that of his peers is greater than that of Pele and his peers or Muller and his peers.

That alone makes his achievement greater.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:06 am

I disagree there.

If we put together all the Mullers,peles.vanbastens,Batistutas together in one group and messi with negredos soldados and darrent bents together in other group. Messi will obviously have a far better goal scoring record than his peers.

That doesn't look like a great achievement to me.

So it comes down to the strength of the strikers they played with which is impossible to judge with out watching.
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Post by kiranr Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:16 am

Messi with Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robin Van Persie, Eto, Ibrahimovic, Del Piero, Totti.

There that sounds better.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:31 pm

kiranr wrote:Messi with Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robin Van Persie, Eto, Ibrahimovic, Del Piero, Totti.

There that sounds better.

now name all the 60s strikers for comparison and describe how good they were Razz you know, guys like eusebio and puskas Wink
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Post by The Verminator Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:29 am

jiopsi wrote:It doesn't matter why they were scoring more then and less now. The adjustment just shows how much better you were than the average goal scorer at the time, and with that comparison Messi's 73 goals in 60 games is more impressive, or further away from the average, than example Pele's 66 goals in 46 games.

You understand this Adit?
I finally understand this completely now. More impressive? yea sure. But better? Dunno about that.
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Post by Harmonica Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:34 pm

The Verminator wrote:
jiopsi wrote:It doesn't matter why they were scoring more then and less now. The adjustment just shows how much better you were than the average goal scorer at the time, and with that comparison Messi's 73 goals in 60 games is more impressive, or further away from the average, than example Pele's 66 goals in 46 games.

You understand this Adit?
I finally understand this completely now. More impressive? yea sure. But better? Dunno about that.
Best is a difficult term, but I think everybody agrees that overall quality of the game is better nowadays, than it was example 50 years ago. I mean players smoked during games, some players were fulltime farmers etc. It's a lot more professional now.
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Post by The Verminator Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:25 am

yea that's true. So i think we can agree that Messi's season (despite the fact i don't like him) was more impressive. Unless someone has something to say about this.....
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