poll: who is better right now portugal or italy

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portugal or italy atm

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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:30 pm

diptiman wrote:this is just plain stupid.. agreed italy have the better points tally, better squad overally but seriously protugal defence> italy's defence.. rannochia lol...pepe and carvalho are world class. chielleni is worlc class but how many big matches has he been involved in this seasion? midfield agree italy is better

strikers - yeah italy have the better centre forwards but thats only one of them.. portugal have some very dangerous wing forwards.. nani , simao are really explosive.. and cr7> any italian forward

Adit wrote:
zarola wrote:MY GOD. RANOCCHIA=BAD? PORTUGAL BETTER THAN ITALY IN DEFENSE?

Are you frakking KIDDING ME. This stupidity is driving me frakking insane! Go watch ranocchia vs Germany or vs bayern stop listening to goal.com or basing your opinion on one own goal. How is Portugal's defense better than Italy in anyway possible at all! Portugal have more goals conceded than game's played ffs!
believe it or not,ranochiaa is shit ATM,on par with albilol lol.

yes ATM portugal defense is better than italian defense by a fair amount.


Bosingwa is on par with any of the italian RBs,pepe -carvalho pairing is miles above the italian CB pairing .wether it is Chiellini-Bonucci or chiellini-0-Ranochiaa(lol).Coentrao is easily best LB in the world ATM.

poll: who is better right now portugal or italy - Page 3 A

Italy - 1 goal conceded
Portugal - 7 goals conceded

LMAO, Nice defense boys.

Um hello? This whole qualifiers we only conceded one goal and Portugal how many? Just goes to show how good their defense is eh? Sorry boys but your false.


Last edited by sciacca on Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by theaguia Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:32 pm

you missed that awesome post by spencer
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:42 pm

Alright Spencer seeing that I don't want to quote your whole statement because it's to long I will sum up my points from what I read from you.

First off, I have no temper.

As for player for player analysis that is completely irrelevant to how the whole squad functions. According to you, Portugal are better then most areas and yet stats show otherwise. So please, if your conclusions are Portugal are a better squad because they have some more WC players then that is completely false. Football dosen't work that way, it works with Tactics and Strategy, which Italians are masters at. A squad is not proven by who is on it, but it's proven by who gets the results and how they do it.

I'll give you this, Fullbacks I agree with, because we do have shit ones without any doubts. However your mention of wingers is irrelevant due to the fact that, WE DON'T USE ANY. Our current system does not rely on them.

As for defense. Stats speak for themselves once again. As I said before, Italy = 1 goal conceded and Portugal = 7 goals. Pretty self explanatory.

Overall speaking both squads have depth, but in the end it what happens on the pitch. Last time we played Portugal, what happened? We beat them, and we beat them with average players. Yes it was two years ago, but it's recent, and up to this date, Portugal have never beaten us.

Stats show it, facts show it. We got to live with it and see as of now Italy are on the verge of qualifying next game while Portugal is still tied with two other teams in 1st place with 10 points and still need to fight for qualification.

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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:52 pm

@Sciacca, I actually mentioned at the end of my point that I did not put tactics or team chemistry in consideration. I believe any of the two managers to be able to pull a tactical masterstroke.

Also, at the end of my analysis, it turned out that Italy in fact comes out in top.

As for the temper, of course you have. In definition, temper is "perceiving emotion" which everybody does. And you, as you mentioned have Sicilian way of perceiving emotion, which again I respect.

As for the 7 goal argument for Portugal, five of them were at the previous coach's reign, and hence are irrelevant. Coach's as you know do make a difference.

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Post by theaguia Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:53 pm

it doesnt seem to matter to some people that we changed coaches, the current team would not conceed 4 gainst cyprus
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Post by theaguia Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:55 pm

and hows wingers not relevant? you dont have any so you dont use them. we play with 3mids you play with 4 so should you win because of quantity?
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:07 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:@Sciacca, I actually mentioned at the end of my point that I did not put tactics or team chemistry in consideration. I believe any of the two managers to be able to pull a tactical masterstroke.

Also, at the end of my analysis, it turned out that Italy in fact comes out in top.

As for the temper, of course you have. In definition, temper is "perceiving emotion" which everybody does. And you, as you mentioned have Sicilian way of perceiving emotion, which again I respect.

As for the 7 goal argument for Portugal, five of them were at the previous coach's reign, and hence are irrelevant. Coach's as you know do make a difference.


Well finally someone with some common sense. The problem is people on this forum claim like theaguia for example think a squad is better within players, which maybe the case sometimes however Italy's and Portugal are not that different when it comes to skill. Yes coaches do play a big part, however the first Portugal coach still almost the same players he had in the past and now. So for those who claim a squad is better with players, well then there's your proof. But anyways, yes as you mentioned with the new coach they have started winning again, due to his tactics and mentality to the team. As for your conclusion, you're right, Italy is the best squad due to the current results and us being ahead of them.

theaguia wrote:and hows wingers not relevant? you dont have any so you dont use them. we play with 3mids you play with 4 so should you win because of quantity?

For the last time, why compare wingers? WHEN WE DON'T HAVE ANY and are not even part of our system. Wait what? We don't play with 4 midfielders? Do you even know our system for crying out loud? We play a 4-3-1-2 with 3 midfielders and a treqaurtista.

This coming from the guy who knows nothing about Italy and yet claimed back in his earlier post that we play a 4-4-2, give me a break.

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Post by Lord Hades Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:13 pm

cant wait for portugal vs italy international friendly ...seeing ronaldo and co rapin chielleni Embarassed
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:18 pm

diptiman wrote:cant wait for portugal vs italy international friendly ...seeing ronaldo and co rapin chielleni Embarassed

Is that so? Last time Ronaldo and Chiellini faced off this is what happened... It will happen, to bad, so sad...


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Post by ErPupone Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:09 pm

Spencer, thank you for ensuring that this thread didn't go entirely to hell. I appreciated your post and in the end, though the point system obviously isn't flawless, it showed that there isn't a great difference between the two teams, a point on which I agree (and it's also a reason why people should be very careful in using the term "miles away"). I don't have much to add to your player to player comparison actually.

Of course though, we can't limit ourselves to a player to player comparison because in reality other things come into effect when comparing two sides: tactics, mentality, coaching, depth, experience, etc. These things allow for a much better debate in my opinion (though they require taking a look into the not to distant past) because a simple debate over the starting 11's is quite bland.

Now, taking into account the two coaches is a little difficult for me since I am not very familiar with Bento's work (I know a bit of what he's done and watched his Sporting a few times). He seems to be a good coach, but still rather young and inexperienced (I mean the man is only 42 if I'm not mistaken, very young for a national team coach). Cesare Prandelli, on the other hand, has much more experience and is a very good coach (over the span of a few years, he brought a struggling Fiorentina side who risked being relegated into the Champions League, which they were unfairly eliminated from by Bayern Munich). Quite an accomplishment in my eyes. I've even watched him work from up close in person and I have to say I was quite impressed by his close attention to details as I was within earshot from his instructions. He sometimes lacks character, but organizes his teams very well and for this reason, may have a slight upper hand against Paulo Bento.

Tactics: I saw an earlier post which bashed Italy for not having quality wingers. It's true, I admit our last great winger was Mauro Camoranesi. However, we have a selection of players who are very much capable to adapting to this problem. Firstly we do play a 4-3-1-2, so the lack of wingers isn't a problem from the start. In the event we do need to switch to a 4-4-2 or need to exploit the wings, it is not a gigantic issue and just requires some tactical tweeks and maximum one substitution. Christian Maggio, a player who isn't known all that well outside of Italy, plays for Mazzarri's Napoli and uses him on the right of a 4-man midfield (in a 3-4-3). We would then have someone like Cassani, also not a big name, who could take his spot at RB and is very capable of putting in good performances. These two have been keeping the likes of Ignazio Abate (a man who did an impressive job in defending against Portugal's very own Cristiano Ronaldo) off the national team, just to give a small idea of how good they actually are. We also have skillfull players like Sebastian Giovinco capable of playing on the left wing. If not, we could always use one of our hard working midfielders, such as Antonio Nocerino or Claudio Marchisio on the left (a tactical move which allowed us to win the World Cup in 2006, when a very similar Simone Perrotta was deployed on the left given, once again, our lack of wingers).

Andrea Pirlo, despite his age, is still a world class player who can single-handedly control the flow of the game even while carrying an injury. Don't get me wrong, Raul Mereiles is a great player and had a very good season with Liverpool, but very few can compare to the class of Andrea Pirlo. Then of course in Pirlo's absence, there are many good players who could take his spot, which brings me to my point on depth. Suppose Italy start a 3 man midfield of Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisio; this is a midfield that practically complements itself, with Pirlo's excellent playmaking skills, De Rossi's energy and defensive aptitutes and Marchisio's capability of contributing to both attack and defense. Say one of them were to throw in the towel, we would still have a huge selection of players to pick from, mainly Montolivo, Aquilani, Palombo, Thiago Motta and Nocerino, not to mention the lesser known Parolo, Ledesma, Mauri and even Diamanti. In goal, Italy has Gigi Buffon who needs no introduction. But they also have a good selection of back up keepers, such as Sirigu, Viviano, De Sanctis, and Marchetti. We admitedly lack some depth at the back. With Maggio, Chiellini, Ranocchia and Criscito making up our back four, we have replacements on the flanks such as Cassani, Abate, Santon, Balzaretti and in the middle, we have Astori, Gamberini, Bonucci and Bovo. In attack, while I see Portugal struggling to find a quality replacement for Almeida, Ronaldo and Nani (Danny and Postiga have been a little under-par imo), Italy has (as suitable replacements for say Cassano, Rossi and Pazzini) the likes of Matri, Quagliarella, Ballotelli, Giovinco, Borriello and Di Natale. And let's not forget that we have two absolute legends ready to put on the azzurri shirt again as soon as they're asked to, Alessandro Del Piero and Francesco Totti. Depth, and not to mention experience which can be evaluated by simply looking at the names of the players I listed throughout this post, definitely goes in Italy's favor.

Some may see these arguments as being a little irrelevant. However, these are extremely important points when considering two national teams and must definitely be taken into account.
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Post by theaguia Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:07 pm

ErPupone wrote:Spencer, thank you for ensuring that this thread didn't go entirely to hell. I appreciated your post and in the end, though the point system obviously isn't flawless, it showed that there isn't a great difference between the two teams, a point on which I agree (and it's also a reason why people should be very careful in using the term "miles away"). I don't have much to add to your player to player comparison actually.

Of course though, we can't limit ourselves to a player to player comparison because in reality other things come into effect when comparing two sides: tactics, mentality, coaching, depth, experience, etc. These things allow for a much better debate in my opinion (though they require taking a look into the not to distant past) because a simple debate over the starting 11's is quite bland.

Now, taking into account the two coaches is a little difficult for me since I am not very familiar with Bento's work (I know a bit of what he's done and watched his Sporting a few times). He seems to be a good coach, but still rather young and inexperienced (I mean the man is only 42 if I'm not mistaken, very young for a national team coach). Cesare Prandelli, on the other hand, has much more experience and is a very good coach (over the span of a few years, he brought a struggling Fiorentina side who risked being relegated into the Champions League, which they were unfairly eliminated from by Bayern Munich). Quite an accomplishment in my eyes. I've even watched him work from up close in person and I have to say I was quite impressed by his close attention to details as I was within earshot from his instructions. He sometimes lacks character, but organizes his teams very well and for this reason, may have a slight upper hand against Paulo Bento.

Tactics: I saw an earlier post which bashed Italy for not having quality wingers. It's true, I admit our last great winger was Mauro Camoranesi. However, we have a selection of players who are very much capable to adapting to this problem. Firstly we do play a 4-3-1-2, so the lack of wingers isn't a problem from the start. In the event we do need to switch to a 4-4-2 or need to exploit the wings, it is not a gigantic issue and just requires some tactical tweeks and maximum one substitution. Christian Maggio, a player who isn't known all that well outside of Italy, plays for Mazzarri's Napoli and uses him on the right of a 4-man midfield (in a 3-4-3). We would then have someone like Cassani, also not a big name, who could take his spot at RB and is very capable of putting in good performances. These two have been keeping the likes of Ignazio Abate (a man who did an impressive job in defending against Portugal's very own Cristiano Ronaldo) off the national team, just to give a small idea of how good they actually are. We also have skillfull players like Sebastian Giovinco capable of playing on the left wing. If not, we could always use one of our hard working midfielders, such as Antonio Nocerino or Claudio Marchisio on the left (a tactical move which allowed us to win the World Cup in 2006, when a very similar Simone Perrotta was deployed on the left given, once again, our lack of wingers).

Andrea Pirlo, despite his age, is still a world class player who can single-handedly control the flow of the game even while carrying an injury. Don't get me wrong, Raul Mereiles is a great player and had a very good season with Liverpool, but very few can compare to the class of Andrea Pirlo. Then of course in Pirlo's absence, there are many good players who could take his spot, which brings me to my point on depth. Suppose Italy start a 3 man midfield of Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisio; this is a midfield that practically complements itself, with Pirlo's excellent playmaking skills, De Rossi's energy and defensive aptitutes and Marchisio's capability of contributing to both attack and defense. Say one of them were to throw in the towel, we would still have a huge selection of players to pick from, mainly Montolivo, Aquilani, Palombo, Thiago Motta and Nocerino, not to mention the lesser known Parolo, Ledesma, Mauri and even Diamanti. In goal, Italy has Gigi Buffon who needs no introduction. But they also have a good selection of back up keepers, such as Sirigu, Viviano, De Sanctis, and Marchetti. We admitedly lack some depth at the back. With Maggio, Chiellini, Ranocchia and Criscito making up our back four, we have replacements on the flanks such as Cassani, Abate, Santon, Balzaretti and in the middle, we have Astori, Gamberini, Bonucci and Bovo. In attack, while I see Portugal struggling to find a quality replacement for Almeida, Ronaldo and Nani (Danny and Postiga have been a little under-par imo), Italy has (as suitable replacements for say Cassano, Rossi and Pazzini) the likes of Matri, Quagliarella, Ballotelli, Giovinco, Borriello and Di Natale. And let's not forget that we have two absolute legends ready to put on the azzurri shirt again as soon as they're asked to, Alessandro Del Piero and Francesco Totti. Depth, and not to mention experience which can be evaluated by simply looking at the names of the players I listed throughout this post, definitely goes in Italy's favor.

Some may see these arguments as being a little irrelevant. However, these are extremely important points when considering two national teams and must definitely be taken into account.

very good post, i understand that italy has excellent depth that cannot be matched by portugal and its true that i do not as astute knowledge of italy as you do. you make a much more compelling case then others.
just a couple of points
1) almeida is under par not postiga
2)santon is a great talent but his last season was terrible, he needs to stop being so fragile
3)never said that italy need to play with wingers, but i was merely replying to the fact that a poster said that portuguese wingers should not be considered
4)it is true alot matters due to tactics and chemistry, and i have always considered that. Both teams had terrible world cups, and needed to revamp their whole squads. Italy managed to change coach before us thus their better start to euro qualis. Both teams look completely different compared to their wc teams.

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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:10 pm

Minchia Mike, you really out did yourself. + 1

You basically just pointed out everything I said, In the last three topics LOL.


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Post by theaguia Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:12 pm

no he didnt he actually debated and said thing you never mentioned anywhere and had a point while just mentioned one or two things like portugal conceeded 7 goals and so on...
i admit i ointed out some wrong things but i tried to make a clear point i am sorry if i have failed but its upsetting when 2 people join up tp bash and mock on someone.

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Post by ErPupone Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:23 pm

theaguia wrote:
very good post, i understand that italy has excellent depth that cannot be matched by portugal and its true that i do not as astute knowledge of italy as you do. you make a much more compelling case then others.
just a couple of points
1) almeida is under par not postiga
2)santon is a great talent but his last season was terrible, he needs to stop being so fragile
3)never said that italy need to play with wingers, but i was merely replying to the fact that a poster said that portuguese wingers should not be considered
4)it is true alot matters due to tactics and chemistry, and i have always considered that. Both teams had terrible world cups, and needed to revamp their whole squads. Italy managed to change coach before us thus their better start to euro qualis. Both teams look completely different compared to their wc teams.

1) I was refering a little more to club form on that point. Almeida has had a pretty good scoring record recently, but you're right I do remember Postiga netting some goals for Portugal recently.

2) Santon's progression has stalled a bit, but he still has lots of potential. He played a pretty important role under Mancini, but he slowed down during Mourinho's last season. He's still very young though and just needs to play consistently, I'm sure he'll be back soon.

3) Well, it's only that this discussion was based mostly on a player to player comparison, which is impossible to do given the different formations and style of play between the two sides.

4) Of course, changes had to be made on both sides.
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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:33 pm

Great guys, now we are all benefiting without semi-insults being hurled everywhere.

On another note, my dad just thrashed my behind in PES, he was playing with Croatia, and I using Italy. Therefore, Croatia is stronger than Italy 🐰
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:40 pm

ErPupone wrote:Spencer, thank you for ensuring that this thread didn't go entirely to hell. I appreciated your post and in the end, though the point system obviously isn't flawless, it showed that there isn't a great difference between the two teams, a point on which I agree (and it's also a reason why people should be very careful in using the term "miles away"). I don't have much to add to your player to player comparison actually.

Of course though, we can't limit ourselves to a player to player comparison because in reality other things come into effect when comparing two sides: tactics, mentality, coaching, depth, experience, etc. These things allow for a much better debate in my opinion (though they require taking a look into the not to distant past) because a simple debate over the starting 11's is quite bland.

Now, taking into account the two coaches is a little difficult for me since I am not very familiar with Bento's work (I know a bit of what he's done and watched his Sporting a few times). He seems to be a good coach, but still rather young and inexperienced (I mean the man is only 42 if I'm not mistaken, very young for a national team coach). Cesare Prandelli, on the other hand, has much more experience and is a very good coach (over the span of a few years, he brought a struggling Fiorentina side who risked being relegated into the Champions League, which they were unfairly eliminated from by Bayern Munich). Quite an accomplishment in my eyes. I've even watched him work from up close in person and I have to say I was quite impressed by his close attention to details as I was within earshot from his instructions. He sometimes lacks character, but organizes his teams very well and for this reason, may have a slight upper hand against Paulo Bento.

Tactics: I saw an earlier post which bashed Italy for not having quality wingers. It's true, I admit our last great winger was Mauro Camoranesi. However, we have a selection of players who are very much capable to adapting to this problem. Firstly we do play a 4-3-1-2, so the lack of wingers isn't a problem from the start. In the event we do need to switch to a 4-4-2 or need to exploit the wings, it is not a gigantic issue and just requires some tactical tweeks and maximum one substitution. Christian Maggio, a player who isn't known all that well outside of Italy, plays for Mazzarri's Napoli and uses him on the right of a 4-man midfield (in a 3-4-3). We would then have someone like Cassani, also not a big name, who could take his spot at RB and is very capable of putting in good performances. These two have been keeping the likes of Ignazio Abate (a man who did an impressive job in defending against Portugal's very own Cristiano Ronaldo) off the national team, just to give a small idea of how good they actually are. We also have skillfull players like Sebastian Giovinco capable of playing on the left wing. If not, we could always use one of our hard working midfielders, such as Antonio Nocerino or Claudio Marchisio on the left (a tactical move which allowed us to win the World Cup in 2006, when a very similar Simone Perrotta was deployed on the left given, once again, our lack of wingers).

Andrea Pirlo, despite his age, is still a world class player who can single-handedly control the flow of the game even while carrying an injury. Don't get me wrong, Raul Mereiles is a great player and had a very good season with Liverpool, but very few can compare to the class of Andrea Pirlo. Then of course in Pirlo's absence, there are many good players who could take his spot, which brings me to my point on depth. Suppose Italy start a 3 man midfield of Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisio; this is a midfield that practically complements itself, with Pirlo's excellent playmaking skills, De Rossi's energy and defensive aptitutes and Marchisio's capability of contributing to both attack and defense. Say one of them were to throw in the towel, we would still have a huge selection of players to pick from, mainly Montolivo, Aquilani, Palombo, Thiago Motta and Nocerino, not to mention the lesser known Parolo, Ledesma, Mauri and even Diamanti. In goal, Italy has Gigi Buffon who needs no introduction. But they also have a good selection of back up keepers, such as Sirigu, Viviano, De Sanctis, and Marchetti. We admitedly lack some depth at the back. With Maggio, Chiellini, Ranocchia and Criscito making up our back four, we have replacements on the flanks such as Cassani, Abate, Santon, Balzaretti and in the middle, we have Astori, Gamberini, Bonucci and Bovo. In attack, while I see Portugal struggling to find a quality replacement for Almeida, Ronaldo and Nani (Danny and Postiga have been a little under-par imo), Italy has (as suitable replacements for say Cassano, Rossi and Pazzini) the likes of Matri, Quagliarella, Ballotelli, Giovinco, Borriello and Di Natale. And let's not forget that we have two absolute legends ready to put on the azzurri shirt again as soon as they're asked to, Alessandro Del Piero and Francesco Totti. Depth, and not to mention experience which can be evaluated by simply looking at the names of the players I listed throughout this post, definitely goes in Italy's favor.

Some may see these arguments as being a little irrelevant. However, these are extremely important points when considering two national teams and must definitely be taken into account.

No, within Points there isn't a big difference, however the whole point is, Italy are still ahead and are undefeated, one game away from qualifying Unlike Portugal who is tied with Denmark and Norway, no surprise really, but still need to fight for a stop. In this case, Italy is ahead of course. Just to clarify to everyone, I never said 'miles ahead', if you got that impression, then your wrong. My only take on the player on player comparison is useless already posted previously why.

Exactly Mike, you see, most of these Portuguese fans think it's best to compare both teams, by players once again explained before. And that is just none sense, not only do both of our teams are almost the same in depth and talent, but that is completely irrelevant to any discussion when it comes to comparing two national teams. Back in 2006, we didn't have the best in the tournament, but we won, due to the experience, depth, mentality(Calciopoli + Pessotto), and tactics. That's what makes a good team, and look what happened, not only were we not contenders, we managed to pull through and win the World Cup. Something Portugal has never done. Oh and for those who claim Portugal were screwed by France in the Semi Finals, fine I agree, however we would of won the finals, sorry but that's the truth.

Well as in coaches, what's there to compare really. You summed it up, Prandelli is more experienced while the other one isn't. Sure he's currently doing good and but it still dosen't mean he is up to Prandelli's level pur say. Prandelli is a coach who brought Fiorentina to the Champions League and did well, defeated Liverpool to go through the group stages. He's that type of coach who believes in youth and uses modern tactics unlike old fashion coaches. He came to Italy knowing there was much to rebuild, and god did he do a hell of a job to rebuild this team. We needed to rediscover who we were, and what type of team we would be. Portugal was already solid in the World Cup, we were full of crap. Prandelli has changed that now, he's gone further then what he even expected this team to do. We are finally discovering who we truly are. Although were not there yet, results talk to themselves. Undefeated in the qualifiers, only having one goal conceded. That's incredible. Just think about it, we went from 16th in August to 9th place in the Fifa Rankings. This team is growing, give it more time and you will see how good we are. As for Portugal, they are growing as well, just not at Italy's rate.

As for wingers, for the last time because I'm getting fed up of people not realizing this. Mike I know you do, I'm just repeating myself. Our system, does not require wingers, so comparing wingers with Portugal is completely irrelevant to this discussion. I have to disagree with a 4-4-2, because that is not needed at all, if anything we can always revert it to a 4-3-3 which infact will look like a dirty version of a 4-3-2-1. That will make everything balanced and fluid. Another disagreement, Mazzarri uses a 3-4-1-2 not a 3-4-3, you mixed up with Gasperini lol. As in fullbacks, Mike is right, to many underrated. Yes, the almighty God, Abate who had a great season although not Italy's best right back, does deserve a chance. Santon, has a lot of potential another name who stopped Ronaldo as well. And the list goes on with the likes of Maggio and Cassani. The real problem is the left back position where our only solid choice is Balzaretti. Underrated, but of course Coentrao beats him any day of my life. Giovinco? Giovinco is one of our most talented players on the squad, could beat almost anyone's talent on the Portuguese team. He can play as a winger(LW), as a Support Striker and most importantly as a Trequartista. His creativity, his dribbling, his speed, his agility, his skill, is just how good he is. Good luck at the Ukraine game, and you all will understand what me and Mike mean. Marchisio is over Nocerino's level, however Nocerino is a solid choice. As you said Marchisio is great tatically who infact can play as a CM, CAM, AM, LW, LB. Very great player to have and is very talented as well, add the likes of De Rossi and Motta...

Andrea Pirlo already is more World Class than any midfielder they have, yes even Merisielles. I don't care if he is young, Pirlo has a vision that no other player has. He's better than Xavi, and hell he's better than Merisiells. You see despite age, Pirlo's position doesn't require him to run much, he's a regista, someone who creates plays from the back support the defence. Aquilani, Montolivo, already are good enough to take the place, which again add more depth unlike Portugal of course. All our midfield choices as Mike mentioned are solid, except for the last three who I dispize the most. He also forgot to mention Diego Fabbrini and Poli, who can fit perfectly in the regista role as well, so many names to choose from... I'm not even going to comment in goal because Portugal don't even match up whatsoever. As for the defense, I don't what anyone says, but Chiellini pops Pepe's legs any day of my life. There's no way in hell that Pepe is better than Chiellini. Strikers yet again no comment, I don't need to explain.

I mostly agreed with Mike said, however the comparisions he made and Spencer just goes to show Italy infact have more depth and experience. By any means, these I still don't consider about being an important factor due to the fact it's idiotic to compare two teams like this, however most of you do so, then that's how it is... I guess for some of you. In my views it's what me and Mike said and it's how the team functions and not what players you actually have on the squad.

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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:42 pm

theaguia wrote:no he didnt he actually debated and said thing you never mentioned anywhere and had a point while just mentioned one or two things like portugal conceeded 7 goals and so on...
i admit i ointed out some wrong things but i tried to make a clear point i am sorry if i have failed but its upsetting when 2 people join up tp bash and mock on someone.


Wait what? What do you mean I didn't. All you did was insult that I couldn't read lmao. I repeated myself 10 million times on how comparing players is none sense which you only did, and how in fact results show we are a head. Go to bed, if you claim I can't debate properly because you are contradicting yourself.

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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:52 pm

@Scicacca: I don't think it completely idiotic. While it is not entirely accurate, it is the shortest analysis method. Fully analyzing would have took to much time for me.

And I completely disagree with you about 2006. Italy had one of the strongest teams, team wise and player wise. Back then, the Gattuso Pirlo partnership was the strongest midfield pairing in the world. Zamba was simply fantastic, Canna at the top of his game, and Buffon being a demi-god. The forwards were not great, but more than okay. Totti and ADP may have not been up to their usual standards, but they were more than okay. Camoranesi played the best football in his life. Even Materatzzi stood up to the occasion.
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:58 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:@Scicacca: I don't think it completely idiotic. While it is not entirely accurate, it is the shortest analysis method. Fully analyzing would have took to much time for me.

And I completely disagree with you about 2006. Italy had one of the strongest teams, team wise and player wise. Back then, the Gattuso Pirlo partnership was the strongest midfield pairing in the world. Zamba was simply fantastic, Canna at the top of his game, and Buffon being a demi-god. The forwards were not great, but more than okay. Totti and ADP may have not been up to their usual standards, but they were more than okay. Camoranesi played the best football in his life. Even Materatzzi stood up to the occasion.

I'm not denying that, however compared to the likes of Argentina, France, Germany, Brazil, and etc... We weren't even contenders. I actually think this was one our best of all time, yes it may sound I might be contradicting myself, but not entirely. Due to the fact that we had go through, Calciopoli, Pessotto trying to suicide that just brought all the motivation down, you should of seen how the media was up our asses. You see, this is where the players in the squad come in, it's not about how good you are. It's just how things actually function. Maybe this video will some what give you an idea. In addition in what happened back in 2002, during that video you will see a little reference back to Totti when he was doing the penalty.





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Post by Magricos Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:59 pm

sciacca wrote:
ErPupone wrote:Spencer, thank you for ensuring that this thread didn't go entirely to hell. I appreciated your post and in the end, though the point system obviously isn't flawless, it showed that there isn't a great difference between the two teams, a point on which I agree (and it's also a reason why people should be very careful in using the term "miles away"). I don't have much to add to your player to player comparison actually.

Of course though, we can't limit ourselves to a player to player comparison because in reality other things come into effect when comparing two sides: tactics, mentality, coaching, depth, experience, etc. These things allow for a much better debate in my opinion (though they require taking a look into the not to distant past) because a simple debate over the starting 11's is quite bland.

Now, taking into account the two coaches is a little difficult for me since I am not very familiar with Bento's work (I know a bit of what he's done and watched his Sporting a few times). He seems to be a good coach, but still rather young and inexperienced (I mean the man is only 42 if I'm not mistaken, very young for a national team coach). Cesare Prandelli, on the other hand, has much more experience and is a very good coach (over the span of a few years, he brought a struggling Fiorentina side who risked being relegated into the Champions League, which they were unfairly eliminated from by Bayern Munich). Quite an accomplishment in my eyes. I've even watched him work from up close in person and I have to say I was quite impressed by his close attention to details as I was within earshot from his instructions. He sometimes lacks character, but organizes his teams very well and for this reason, may have a slight upper hand against Paulo Bento.

Tactics: I saw an earlier post which bashed Italy for not having quality wingers. It's true, I admit our last great winger was Mauro Camoranesi. However, we have a selection of players who are very much capable to adapting to this problem. Firstly we do play a 4-3-1-2, so the lack of wingers isn't a problem from the start. In the event we do need to switch to a 4-4-2 or need to exploit the wings, it is not a gigantic issue and just requires some tactical tweeks and maximum one substitution. Christian Maggio, a player who isn't known all that well outside of Italy, plays for Mazzarri's Napoli and uses him on the right of a 4-man midfield (in a 3-4-3). We would then have someone like Cassani, also not a big name, who could take his spot at RB and is very capable of putting in good performances. These two have been keeping the likes of Ignazio Abate (a man who did an impressive job in defending against Portugal's very own Cristiano Ronaldo) off the national team, just to give a small idea of how good they actually are. We also have skillfull players like Sebastian Giovinco capable of playing on the left wing. If not, we could always use one of our hard working midfielders, such as Antonio Nocerino or Claudio Marchisio on the left (a tactical move which allowed us to win the World Cup in 2006, when a very similar Simone Perrotta was deployed on the left given, once again, our lack of wingers).

Andrea Pirlo, despite his age, is still a world class player who can single-handedly control the flow of the game even while carrying an injury. Don't get me wrong, Raul Mereiles is a great player and had a very good season with Liverpool, but very few can compare to the class of Andrea Pirlo. Then of course in Pirlo's absence, there are many good players who could take his spot, which brings me to my point on depth. Suppose Italy start a 3 man midfield of Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisio; this is a midfield that practically complements itself, with Pirlo's excellent playmaking skills, De Rossi's energy and defensive aptitutes and Marchisio's capability of contributing to both attack and defense. Say one of them were to throw in the towel, we would still have a huge selection of players to pick from, mainly Montolivo, Aquilani, Palombo, Thiago Motta and Nocerino, not to mention the lesser known Parolo, Ledesma, Mauri and even Diamanti. In goal, Italy has Gigi Buffon who needs no introduction. But they also have a good selection of back up keepers, such as Sirigu, Viviano, De Sanctis, and Marchetti. We admitedly lack some depth at the back. With Maggio, Chiellini, Ranocchia and Criscito making up our back four, we have replacements on the flanks such as Cassani, Abate, Santon, Balzaretti and in the middle, we have Astori, Gamberini, Bonucci and Bovo. In attack, while I see Portugal struggling to find a quality replacement for Almeida, Ronaldo and Nani (Danny and Postiga have been a little under-par imo), Italy has (as suitable replacements for say Cassano, Rossi and Pazzini) the likes of Matri, Quagliarella, Ballotelli, Giovinco, Borriello and Di Natale. And let's not forget that we have two absolute legends ready to put on the azzurri shirt again as soon as they're asked to, Alessandro Del Piero and Francesco Totti. Depth, and not to mention experience which can be evaluated by simply looking at the names of the players I listed throughout this post, definitely goes in Italy's favor.

Some may see these arguments as being a little irrelevant. However, these are extremely important points when considering two national teams and must definitely be taken into account.

No, within Points there isn't a big difference, however the whole point is, Italy are still ahead and are undefeated, one game away from qualifying Unlike Portugal who is tied with Denmark and Norway, no surprise really, but still need to fight for a stop. In this case, Italy is ahead of course. Just to clarify to everyone, I never said 'miles ahead', if you got that impression, then your wrong. My only take on the player on player comparison is useless already posted previously why.

Exactly Mike, you see, most of these Portuguese fans think it's best to compare both teams, by players once again explained before. And that is just none sense, not only do both of our teams are almost the same in depth and talent, but that is completely irrelevant to any discussion when it comes to comparing two national teams. Back in 2006, we didn't have the best in the tournament, but we won, due to the experience, depth, mentality(Calciopoli + Pessotto), and tactics. That's what makes a good team, and look what happened, not only were we not contenders, we managed to pull through and win the World Cup. Something Portugal has never done. Oh and for those who claim Portugal were screwed by France in the Semi Finals, fine I agree, however we would of won the finals, sorry but that's the truth.

Well as in coaches, what's there to compare really. You summed it up, Prandelli is more experienced while the other one isn't. Sure he's currently doing good and but it still dosen't mean he is up to Prandelli's level pur say. Prandelli is a coach who brought Fiorentina to the Champions League and did well, defeated Liverpool to go through the group stages. He's that type of coach who believes in youth and uses modern tactics unlike old fashion coaches. He came to Italy knowing there was much to rebuild, and god did he do a hell of a job to rebuild this team. We needed to rediscover who we were, and what type of team we would be. Portugal was already solid in the World Cup, we were full of crap. Prandelli has changed that now, he's gone further then what he even expected this team to do. We are finally discovering who we truly are. Although were not there yet, results talk to themselves. Undefeated in the qualifiers, only having one goal conceded. That's incredible. Just think about it, we went from 16th in August to 9th place in the Fifa Rankings. This team is growing, give it more time and you will see how good we are. As for Portugal, they are growing as well, just not at Italy's rate.

As for wingers, for the last time because I'm getting fed up of people not realizing this. Mike I know you do, I'm just repeating myself. Our system, does not require wingers, so comparing wingers with Portugal is completely irrelevant to this discussion. I have to disagree with a 4-4-2, because that is not needed at all, if anything we can always revert it to a 4-3-3 which infact will look like a dirty version of a 4-3-2-1. That will make everything balanced and fluid. Another disagreement, Mazzarri uses a 3-4-1-2 not a 3-4-3, you mixed up with Gasperini lol. As in fullbacks, Mike is right, to many underrated. Yes, the almighty God, Abate who had a great season although not Italy's best right back, does deserve a chance. Santon, has a lot of potential another name who stopped Ronaldo as well. And the list goes on with the likes of Maggio and Cassani. The real problem is the left back position where our only solid choice is Balzaretti. Underrated, but of course Coentrao beats him any day of my life. Giovinco? Giovinco is one of our most talented players on the squad, could beat almost anyone's talent on the Portuguese team. He can play as a winger(LW), as a Support Striker and most importantly as a Trequartista. His creativity, his dribbling, his speed, his agility, his skill, is just how good he is. Good luck at the Ukraine game, and you all will understand what me and Mike mean. Marchisio is over Nocerino's level, however Nocerino is a solid choice. As you said Marchisio is great tatically who infact can play as a CM, CAM, AM, LW, LB. Very great player to have and is very talented as well, add the likes of De Rossi and Motta...

Andrea Pirlo already is more World Class than any midfielder they have, yes even Merisielles. I don't care if he is young, Pirlo has a vision that no other player has. He's better than Xavi, and hell he's better than Merisiells. You see despite age, Pirlo's position doesn't require him to run much, he's a regista, someone who creates plays from the back support the defence. Aquilani, Montolivo, already are good enough to take the place, which again add more depth unlike Portugal of course. All our midfield choices as Mike mentioned are solid, except for the last three who I dispize the most. He also forgot to mention Diego Fabbrini and Poli, who can fit perfectly in the regista role as well, so many names to choose from... I'm not even going to comment in goal because Portugal don't even match up whatsoever. As for the defense, I don't what anyone says, but Chiellini pops Pepe's legs any day of my life. There's no way in hell that Pepe is better than Chiellini. Strikers yet again no comment, I don't need to explain.

I mostly agreed with Mike said, however the comparisions he made and Spencer just goes to show Italy infact have more depth and experience. By any means, these I still don't consider about being an important factor due to the fact it's idiotic to compare two teams like this, however most of you do so, then that's how it is... I guess for some of you. In my views it's what me and Mike said and it's how the team functions and not what players you actually have on the squad.


LMAO you still think Pirlo is better than Xavi.

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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:01 pm

Pirlo's peak lasted for 8 years, Xavi just shined 3-4 years ago. I see nothing wrong with comparing the two. They are pretty close IMO, with Xavi edging on possession, but Pirlo having a more lethal pass.

@Sci: Isn't it like an Italian tradition to ride the NT ass before every tournament , I don't remember any major competition where the press were actually positive. (I am not insulting, I actually find that endearing)

And WTF, my rep just got hit again, this does not make any sense Evil or Very Mad


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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:02 pm

Were talking about in general as in career, not currently. Read properly. Did I ever say currently? No. Back on the old forums 80% of the votes even claimed Pirlo was better than Xavi.

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:08 pm

CMon seriously? Italy is way better.
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:11 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:

@Sci: Isn't it like an Italian tradition to ride the NT ass before every tournament , I don't remember any major competition where the press were actually positive. (I am not insulting, I actually find that endearing)

:

Refer back to 1982, you will understand what I mean. :coffee:

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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:18 pm

Italy should then conjure a scandal before the 2014 world cup, would Juve mind going down again Rolling Eyes

But really, pessimism is engraved in Italian culture, with Machiavelli, Caesar, and other philosophers supporting my claim. It is only natural that modern Italy would be so. (again I am not insulting, just observing, if you did not yet notice, I am a big fan of Italian culture).
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Post by Guest Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:20 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Italy should then conjure a scandal before the 2014 world cup, would Juve mind going down again Rolling Eyes

But really, pessimism is engraved in Italian culture, with Machiavelli, Caesar, and other philosophers supporting my claim. It is only natural that modern Italy would be so. (again I am not insulting, just observing, if you did not yet notice, I am a big fan of Italian culture).

Well scandals are happening right now again so, who knows...

Well good to hear that you respect our culture.

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