Is Bayern the model to follow?

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Post by juanamo Tue May 22, 2012 10:18 am

debtfree club, unfortunately and very sadly not what u can say about most european football clubs, and they were pretty close at winning and now they have been 2 finals in 3 years. i would be proud of such an achievement if i was a club director.

why can't other clubs follow the same model, and if all clubs followed the same model would football be more competitive or less?


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Post by Forza Tue May 22, 2012 12:07 pm

Taking out a loan means faster development and gives clubs the ability to do things (e.g. build stadiums, facilities, buy expensive players) that they otherwise wouldn't be able to.

The issue is when clubs take out loans just to keep the club running and eventually accumulate an enormous amount of debt. Then they keep spending and never get around to paying it off until it's too late.

Bayern are lucky that they have lots of cash in reserve and are in a country which is doing relatively well economically in comparison to the rest of Europe. Most clubs can't make big investments without borrowing money.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 12:19 pm

Well, the Bayern cash reserve was built up by responsible spending over a long time. If you compare the transfers many other clubs have done with those of Bayern, there is a huge difference, especially as there were even years where Bayern opted not to buy expensive players at all and rather tried to get people from their youth academy into the first team.

I know that many followers of big spending clubs ridiculed Bayern for not buying stars in each transfer window, but in the long term this is a far more sustainable model. And if you look at the Bayern team - Lahm, Badstuber, Alaba, Contento, Kroos and Schweinsteiger came from the Bayern youth teams (okay, Kroos and Alaba got there with 16 or 17, but still), and you can't say they are not class (okay, let's ingnore Contento, but he wasn't that bad in the CL either).

So you can't say Bayern are lucky with their cash reserves - they just have a management that works more carefully with their money.

And despite all of this they still don't try to grab money left and right, they keep the ticket prices low and even play charity matches to support other clubs that got into financial trouble (atm they decided to help out Hansa Rostock who are close to bankrupty and will play them to raise money to keep Hansa afloat).
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Post by Le Samourai Tue May 22, 2012 12:27 pm

I rather the Dortmund model.

Seriously......

Other than the fact that they're willing to sell their best players , their model is hard to match.

The only thing that separates them from say a Arsenal or a Dortmund is that they hang on to their players...and even with that Dortmund still seem to have the edge on them.

All this while spending less than 1/10 of what Bayern spend on transfer fees.


Last edited by Le Samourai on Tue May 22, 2012 12:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by BAYERN_MUNICH Tue May 22, 2012 12:28 pm

The point is, Bayern don't pay extraordinary transfer-fees, though they could pay. For example we would never pay 94Mil. € for a player even, if it's Messi or CR7.

And then there are clubs who have so much debts and can't really pay high transfer fees like Athletico Madrid, and then they spend 40Mil. € on Falcao.

Imo clubs like that should concentrate on their own youth, get players for free or cheap players. A club like Athletico Madrid spending 40. Mil for a player is just weird.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Le Samourai wrote:I rather the Dortmund model.

Seriously......

Other than the fact that they're willing to sell their best players , their model is hard to match.

The only thing that separates them from say a Arsenal or a Dortmund is that they hang on to their players...and even with that Dortmund still seem to have the edge on them.

All this while spending less than 1/10 of what Bayern spend on transfer fees.
You are aware that Dortmund are only working that way nowadays after they almost went bankrupt when they went on huge spending sprees around 2000? Dortmund fortunately got a sane manager in 2005 (IIRC) who took over when the finances of the club were completely in the cellar due to horrendous mis-management that started around 1997 when they won their first (and so far only) CL.

The fact that Dortmund are currently focused on top scouting and hiring cheap, young players and promoting youth was forced on them to get rid of the debts they accumulated around 2000. It is great that it works, by the way, but you need to look a bit at the history to understand why things developed that way.
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Post by Le Samourai Tue May 22, 2012 1:00 pm

Doesn't matter.

It's led to a financial turnaround and led to success........they spend pennies and the walk Bundesliga while Bayern spends 10x the amount.

That's all I'm looking at.

I'm not looking at why they had to implement it because I don't think it's relevant, since everything they did before implementing it was not part of this model.

7 years is good enough.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 1:20 pm

Well, compared to clubs in England or Spain or Italy, Bayern also only spend pennies. It is all relative Very Happy

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Post by BAYERN_MUNICH Tue May 22, 2012 1:24 pm

Le Samourai wrote:Doesn't matter.

It's led to a financial turnaround and led to success........they spend pennies and the walk Bundesliga while Bayern spends 10x the amount.

That's all I'm looking at.

I'm not looking at why they had to implement it because I don't think it's relevant, since everything they did before implementing it was not part of this model.

7 years is good enough.

You know that Bayern(Hoeneß) saved Dortmunds ass and prevented the bankruptcy of dortmund in 2003. Hoeneß lend Dortmund 2Mil. € without any bankable collateral from Dortmund. Dortmund couldn't even pay their wages back then.

So without Bayern , Dortmund would not exist in the way they do now.
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Post by Le Samourai Tue May 22, 2012 1:26 pm

I thought I made it pretty clear before....but I do not care.

Why? Because none of that is relevant Laughing
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Post by BAYERN_MUNICH Tue May 22, 2012 1:31 pm

How could that not be relevant? Bayern made the first step for Dortmund to start their new model.
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Post by Le Samourai Tue May 22, 2012 1:38 pm

Because they changed models.

All the bad transfers and stuff are as a result of the old model , the new model is clearly superior.

It's not like Bayern is bankrolling their youth system or their transfers, they saved them from bankruptcy years ago after their old model failed hard. They completely shifted the way they do things, you cant group the two together.
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Post by S Tue May 22, 2012 1:50 pm

The Dortmund model is still in its infancy.In a few years your comment could just be viewed as a knee-jerk comment once BVB start selling their best players IF they dont win anything relevant.

And in the end Dortmund model would be compared to the likes of Udinese and Porto..Only difference is that they're raising their own youth whereas clubs like Porto and Udinese scout players from all over the world and sell them for huge profit.

BVB have won back to back Bundesliga titles doesnt mean their model is the most successful model FFS.If BVB make one costly financial move,it could all fall apart whereas thats not the case in Bayern.they'd still generate substantial revenue.

Bayern are a global brand and generate revenue that BVB could ever dream of.Plus when they pay of their stadium debt they will become a financial powerhouse.

Whilst BVB are not there just yet.And it all depends on how successful they are on pitch in the coming years to really determine if their model is one to follow or not.Practically i dont see BVB's model being implemented by the present 'top' clubs.
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Post by guest7 Tue May 22, 2012 1:54 pm

Yes I think so.

They respect their legends alot aswell and I think the Bayern Munich management is the best out there by far. Just needs to learn how to shut up sometimes in front of press (Hoeness Wink ) but they do everything else right.
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Post by Kingofeverythingclassy Tue May 22, 2012 1:57 pm

That was stupid. We should have made a 2 Players In return something Contractual obligation or maybe we should have bought a few shares in there.

I dont know. Anything that gets us Goetze,Kagawa,Hummels,Lewandoski for dirt cheap money

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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 2:08 pm

Well, I guess the whole Bundesliga is financially more stable than the other big leagues as the licensing for the clubs enforces them to be financially stable. In a way, the BL practises the FFP for quite a while as here no club is allowed to overspend badly anymore, something that was implemented to prevent things like the almost-collapse of the BVB due to bad management.

On the plus side, most clubs now are in the black numbers (there are some that operate on a loss once in a while, but compared to certain other teams in other leagues that would be considered mere "peanuts".)

The only drawback is that during the period it took for the clubs to get out of the red and set up proper youth academies (which, btw, are mandatory in Germany to get a license, too), the European success was comparatively low, leading to the fans of the big spending clubs to ridicule the BL for being weak and not attracting big name players etc.

What most people didn't realise is that our management is actually set up to yield long term success. By now the youth academies are producing top talent in numbers and we actually don't need to buy big names as we are producing them ourselves. And now it is only a question of time until the BL clubs finally win again in Europe. Especially as the BL virtually re-invented itself and not only stabilized the clubs, but also managed to find an identity by playing our own brand of attractive football.
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Post by VivaStPauli Tue May 22, 2012 2:10 pm

Samourai, mate, the Dortmund model IS the Bayern model.

Dortmund are winning because of superior coaching, tactics, and chemistry, the reason they don't buy Ribéry or Robben is because they just can't, not because it's opposed to their philosophy.

They both operate on the same model: Keep it domestic as far as possible, promote your own youth, spend small, buy bargains only, build up other clubs rejects.

Dortmund is doing EXACTLY what Bayern does, they just have less reserves.

And they're not "willing to sell their best players" as you put it. That's just incredible false as a statement in itself. They put a "not for sale" tag on basically all their team. But if someone wants to leave desperately and is unwilling to extend their contract, and you're as close to being broke as Dortmund is, you sell that 1-year-player and cash in, what else are they going to do?

Dortmund can't offer fantasy wages and pay fantasy transfer sums, so of course a Kagawa (traitor mercenary dwarf) is going to join ManU, and Sahin (traitor mercenary glasshole) is going to join Real, so they don't have to buy their Ferrari from Dortmund wages, but rather buy five Ferraris from half their fantasy wage. As long as Dortmund have Kloppo, they can replace any player.

Bayern just don't have Kloppo, other than that, their system is basically the same, Bayern are just richer, and have the poorer coach.

Also, to the OP: Yes, all clubs should be run like this, and have to be run like this once FFP is implemented. :X
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Post by Forza Tue May 22, 2012 2:14 pm

How are Dortmund so cash-strapped when they get one of the highest attendances in Europe? Their TV deal must be shite.
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Post by Bellabong Tue May 22, 2012 2:18 pm

Nah, that wouldn't be classy anymore.

For all the drama, all the comparisons some try to make with Manchester United Bayern will always be a class act in the way it helps out other clubs financially without demanding much in return.

It's been more about helping German football, (or its players hometown clubs, such as a charity match played for Van Bommels hometown club etc.) than trying to stay on top (granted that wasn't all too hard to do).

Foreign clubs are going into administration left and right and I don't see other clubs helping them out.

Bayern saved Dortmund, Bayern saved a city rival on multiple occasions etc. It wouldn't be right to demand anything other than respect and recognition for such charity.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 2:23 pm

Forza Rossoneri wrote:How are Dortmund so cash-strapped when they get one of the highest attendances in Europe? Their TV deal must be shite.
The Bundesliga TV revenue is the lowest of the 5 big leagues. Even the French TV deal is better. That's because in German the pay TV market just doesn't work like in other countries as here people refuse to get ripped off. Actually even Bayern get less than even the last in the EPL, IIRC.

Here is the TV income of the BL clubs:

Is Bayern the model to follow? Bl21
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Post by S Tue May 22, 2012 2:29 pm

Not all clubs are blessed with youth like Dortmund either.And relatively smaller clubs tend to show more patience than most of the top clubs,they run on a low risk factor.In Dortmund's case they've got more than expected like Viva said thanks to a great coach who has made this team into a well-oiled unit.And Dortmund dont earn anywhere close to what Bayern earn.

When we are talking about the elite clubs in Europe,Bayern model is the best model to follow..FFP is basically being implemented to curb down the expenditure from top clubs.So in that respect Bayern have set an example to the rest of the top clubs.

Zero Debt
Own stadium which generates substantial Matchday revenue
Kings in commercial revenue
They've done great work with their youth system too.
And basically in the future,they'd be spending what they earn.Which makes room for big money transfers UNDER FFP.
Looking by the current scenario of some other top clubs who are struggling to meet FFP's demands not many clubs 'may not' have the fortune of making big purchases whilst not collecting debts.


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Post by Kingofeverythingclassy Tue May 22, 2012 2:31 pm

The new DL is around 650 Million Per season right?? So did BL pip Ligue 1 now?? 52% is a big BIG Gain. We are expected to gain around 8-10 Million more PER SEASON because of this. I cant imagine what happens after the stadium is paid off. Add another 25-30 Million.

Man we'll be a monster.

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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 2:34 pm

Kingofeverythingclassy wrote:That was stupid. We should have made a 2 Players In return something Contractual obligation or maybe we should have bought a few shares in there.
AFAIK Hoeness does have quite some shares of Dortmund. I read about that in some report a while ago. Very Happy
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Post by rwo power Tue May 22, 2012 2:36 pm

Kingofeverythingclassy wrote:The new DL is around 650 Million Per season right?? So did BL pip Ligue 1 now?? 52% is a big BIG Gain.
I'm not sure if the BL finally overtook Ligue 1 in TV revenue as I have no idea how the French TV deal looks for the next season(s). But the current deal is better than what Ligue 1 has so far.
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Post by BAYERN_MUNICH Tue May 22, 2012 2:36 pm

Kingofeverythingclassy wrote:The new DL is around 650 Million Per season right?? So did BL pip Ligue 1 now?? 52% is a big BIG Gain. We are expected to gain around 8-10 Million more PER SEASON because of this. I cant imagine what happens after the stadium is paid off. Add another 25-30 Million.

Man we'll be a monster.

but we have to wait about ~6 more years for thestaium to be paid off...and after that money is flowing like water cheers
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