Re: Pele is not the best in history [FACTS]

by Mr Nick09 Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:07 pm

FilipeFerreira wrote:

Thread summarized.

Pele was not the best player ever, It's obviously Messi because I'm a barca fan.

Pele is not the best in history [FACTS] - Page 2 Conan-rofl

by Swanhends Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:13 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I know a lot of Brazilians that say that Pele is not even the best Brazilian. Hence why I could not consider him the best ever.

That being said, the 'didn't play in Europe' argument is bull. At that time Santos was the best team in the world, why would he want to go to Europe?

Eusebio scored 3 goals in 25 minutes against Santos as a 17 year old :coffee:

most underrated player ever

by izzy Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:18 pm

I still don't know what the facts are.

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:24 pm

Eusebio (and i only use that name for the portuguese benfica legend) is a top 5 player of all time. He was insane.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:28 pm

bhends wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I know a lot of Brazilians that say that Pele is not even the best Brazilian. Hence why I could not consider him the best ever.

That being said, the 'didn't play in Europe' argument is bull. At that time Santos was the best team in the world, why would he want to go to Europe?

Eusebio scored 3 goals in 25 minutes against Santos as a 17 year old

most underrated player ever

Finally someone else on this forum who respects the great player that was Eusebio.

by The BoyWonder Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:39 pm

Ganso wrote:i guess there simply isnt a "best ever",just top tiers.
1st tier:Pele,Maradona,Cruyff etc
2nd tier:Messi,Zidane,R9,Ronaldo,Xavi etc

you consider cruyf in same tier as maradona and pele, but ronaldo the real one is in the same tier as xavi, cronaldo and messi?

where do u rank garrincha, since he isn't there at all?

by Ganso Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:45 pm

The BoyWonder wrote:
Ganso wrote:i guess there simply isnt a "best ever",just top tiers.
1st tier:Pele,Maradona,Cruyff etc
2nd tier:Messi,Zidane,R9,Ronaldo,Xavi etc

you consider cruyf in same tier as maradona and pele, but ronaldo the real one is in the same tier as xavi, cronaldo and messi?
where do u rank garrincha, since he isn't there at all?

garrincha is 1st tier,i put etc. there for a reason

by Lord Spencer Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:51 pm

Hello all, I just wrote a huge post defending pele, but accidentally pushed the back button and (boooooooom) goes the post Crying or Very sad

so I am going to redo it in points only:

1- There is no BEST player, only tiers (Down from Tier Podolski to -99 (Amauri))
2-Pele was a complete striker (both feet strong, header).
3-However, he was deployed as an SS, due to his creativity and dangerous passes.
4-What made Pele heads and shoulders above the rest back in the day was his absolute devotion to football, as opposed to Garrincha for example.
5- Due to above, Pele had huge fitness in comparison to peers.

6-Brazilian league was number one (as evidenced by NT Dominance).
7-Santos was number one (Brazilian league winners, and copa, and intercont. cups).
8-Therefore Pele's Santos was number one, hence the "pele didn't play in europe argument" is bull.

9-!958: Pele as a 17 year old kid played every knockout match scoring in all of them including the only goal against Wales.

10-1962: Pele scored in the first game Against Mexico (and assisted the first), and got injured in the first 10 in the next. He played the whole match limping since subs were not allowed then. (Pele is injured for the rest of the cup)

11-1966: Scored in first game against Bulgaria and got so beat up he couldn't walk after the game. Had to be rested for second group game (Brazil lost 3-1). In final group game , while Pele was still nursing an injury, João Morais brutally fouled Pelé, but was not sent off by referee George McCabe, of whom it is acknowledged let "the Portuguese get away with murder". He continued the rest of the game limping so badly he couldn't shoot straight.

12-1970: With the card rules finally coming into play, players like pele were protected, and pele at the end of his peak dazzled the world in a mature performance. having the highest assist stat in the cup.

Adjusting for modernization in football: Myth Busting;

The game is faster now:

True, but they did not have to deal with a heavy leather ball that absorbs water, an uneven ground for play, heavy shirts, and often used boots (as was the case in poverty stricken Brazil. It takes real skill to control the ball in uch conditions, which normally makes the game slower. I would like to see R9 or Messi log that ball round in a pitch more like sand dunes than grass.

Defense was tactically crap:

Maybe so, but they knew that too. And due to the lacking of clear punishment (no cards until 1970) and the no-subbing rule. Defense would just target star players, and hack away at their legs, which is the reason the world did not witness Pele at his peak (1962 1966). With all the protection player get now, protection more akin to baby sitting, you would need deep blue to marshal your defense in the future.

Players are more fit now:

Pele was heads and shoulders above everyone else in this regard back then, there is no reason why he would not have the same mentality if he was playing at this era. Maybe if messi goes back to 1960 as he is now, he will be the best player then (unless João Morais hacks his legs off), but if messi was in that era, he would be as fit as they are.

When comparing players from different era, make sure to adjust for inflation please, or you are likely fall to being terribly unjust to such talented players.

Regards, and sorry for this hectic post, I can assure you the original was better organized.

Very Happy

by Albiceleste Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:34 pm

The BoyWonder wrote:
Ganso wrote:i guess there simply isnt a "best ever",just top tiers.
1st tier:Pele,Maradona,Cruyff etc
2nd tier:Messi,Zidane,R9,Ronaldo,Xavi etc

you consider cruyf in same tier as maradona and pele, but ronaldo the real one is in the same tier as xavi, cronaldo and messi?

where do u rank garrincha, since he isn't there at all?

Seriously, he ranks Ronaldo with Messi Zidane and R9 lol, delusion

by Babun Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Hello all, I just wrote a huge post defending pele, but accidentally pushed the back button and (boooooooom) goes the post
so I am going to redo it in points only:

1- There is no BEST player, only tiers (Down from Tier Podolski to -99 (Amauri))
2-Pele was a complete striker (both feet strong, header).
3-However, he was deployed as an SS, due to his creativity and dangerous passes.
4-What made Pele heads and shoulders above the rest back in the day was his absolute devotion to football, as opposed to Garrincha for example.
5- Due to above, Pele had huge fitness in comparison to peers.

6-Brazilian league was number one (as evidenced by NT Dominance).
7-Santos was number one (Brazilian league winners, and copa, and intercont. cups).
8-Therefore Pele's Santos was number one, hence the "pele didn't play in europe argument" is bull.

9-!958: Pele as a 17 year old kid played every knockout match scoring in all of them including the only goal against Wales.

10-1962: Pele scored in the first game Against Mexico (and assisted the first), and got injured in the first 10 in the next. He played the whole match limping since subs were not allowed then. (Pele is injured for the rest of the cup)

11-1966: Scored in first game against Bulgaria and got so beat up he couldn't walk after the game. Had to be rested for second group game (Brazil lost 3-1). In final group game , while Pele was still nursing an injury, João Morais brutally fouled Pelé, but was not sent off by referee George McCabe, of whom it is acknowledged let "the Portuguese get away with murder". He continued the rest of the game limping so badly he couldn't shoot straight.

12-1970: With the card rules finally coming into play, players like pele were protected, and pele at the end of his peak dazzled the world in a mature performance. having the highest assist stat in the cup.

Adjusting for modernization in football: Myth Busting;

The game is faster now:

True, but they did not have to deal with a heavy leather ball that absorbs water, an uneven ground for play, heavy shirts, and often used boots (as was the case in poverty stricken Brazil. It takes real skill to control the ball in uch conditions, which normally makes the game slower. I would like to see R9 or Messi log that ball round in a pitch more like sand dunes than grass.

Defense was tactically crap:

Maybe so, but they knew that too. And due to the lacking of clear punishment (no cards until 1970) and the no-subbing rule. Defense would just target star players, and hack away at their legs, which is the reason the world did not witness Pele at his peak (1962 1966). With all the protection player get now, protection more akin to baby sitting, you would need deep blue to marshal your defense in the future.

Players are more fit now:

Pele was heads and shoulders above everyone else in this regard back then, there is no reason why he would not have the same mentality if he was playing at this era. Maybe if messi goes back to 1960 as he is now, he will be the best player then (unless João Morais hacks his legs off), but if messi was in that era, he would be as fit as they are.

When comparing players from different era, make sure to adjust for inflation please, or you are likely fall to being terribly unjust to such talented players.

Regards, and sorry for this hectic post, I can assure you the original was better organized.

I'll add some more points because I watched old footages of Pele. The man had an incredible footballing brain as a poacher. He could predict where the ball would arrive 3-4 moves before, positioned himself there and scored Very Happy

He was a physical animal ( lack of words for better description), they hacked him, pulled on his shirt etc. but it wasn't enough to stop him. Defenders at his time were as physical as possible against him.
Now, he wasn't just some physical poacher, he was a real two-footed dribbler, absolutely a nightmare for any defender to predict his next movement. Anyone who played football pro, semi pro or a little bit seriously would know how devastating a superb two-footed dribbler could be. He was fast,super technical, physical, could score with anything, maybe with his d!ck as well Very Happy

CR7 or Drogba aren't 60% as physical as him. The only guys who came close were R9 and Batigol. If Messi or CR7 played in his era, you'd see them on treatment table all the time . Last but not least, the modern game you're so proud of was kick-started by Pele :lol!:

by Seppuku Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:57 pm

Why the F is Messi even mentioned here?

by Albiceleste Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:08 am

Seppuku wrote:Why the F is Messi even mentioned here?

He's already one of the GOATs

Pele is not the best in history [FACTS] - Page 2 Vomitdeal

stay mad

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:12 am

Either way, Pele's got nothing on Batistuta Afro

by Seppuku Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:18 am

Pele is not the best in history [FACTS] - Page 2 I-aint-even-mad

Seriously tho, it's lulz worthy Messi being even mentioned in this shit...

by Babun Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:27 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Either way, Pele's got nothing on Batistuta

Sorry, he pimps Batigol in this one Very Happy

by Albiceleste Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:50 am

Seppuku wrote:

Seriously tho, it's lulz worthy Messi being even mentioned in this shit...

He doesn't think Messi is a GOAT
Pele is not the best in history [FACTS] - Page 2 12

by Seppuku Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:55 am

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:00 am

babun1024 wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Either way, Pele's got nothing on Batistuta
Sorry, he pimps Batigol in this one

Bro, Pele had his debut with a boy...

Oh well, better than Garrincha, he was rumored to have his with a goat Very Happy

I might be confusing my brazilian players here

jk no problem with homos, although bestiality is not okay

by Albiceleste Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:00 am

by aford92 Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:12 am

ChollaVille wrote:I'm am not saying that they are all better than Pele is... But Ronaldo El Phenomeno fur sure is!!!

PELE IS NOT THE BEST EVER - FACT!!!

THIS^^ I have been saying for years that I think Ronaldo is better. That being said there is no doubt that he was an amazing player and it is very disrespectful of you to call him an old man and discredit some of his accomplishments.

by Babun Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:23 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Either way, Pele's got nothing on Batistuta
Sorry, he pimps Batigol in this one

Bro, Pele had his debut with a boy...

Oh well, better than Garrincha, he was rumored to have his with a goat

Why is b. not okay? Very Happy

As long as both parties enjoy it... :coffee:

I wouldn't do both by the way Very Happy

Batigol was the best role model ever. He didn't drink or smoke, was faithful towards his wife, professional on and off the pitch, remained in Fiorentina and wasn't ' Xavi like humble and respectful in press' Very Happy

by Sushi Master Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:49 am

I just checked Eusebio's numbers. 638 goals in 614 matches for Benfica. Holy freaking shit. That's like Mueller numbers. He has my respects.

by M99 Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:37 am

Lord Spencer wrote:Hello all, I just wrote a huge post defending pele, but accidentally pushed the back button and (boooooooom) goes the post
so I am going to redo it in points only:

1- There is no BEST player, only tiers (Down from Tier Podolski to -99 (Amauri))
2-Pele was a complete striker (both feet strong, header).
3-However, he was deployed as an SS, due to his creativity and dangerous passes.
4-What made Pele heads and shoulders above the rest back in the day was his absolute devotion to football, as opposed to Garrincha for example.
5- Due to above, Pele had huge fitness in comparison to peers.

6-Brazilian league was number one (as evidenced by NT Dominance).
7-Santos was number one (Brazilian league winners, and copa, and intercont. cups).
8-Therefore Pele's Santos was number one, hence the "pele didn't play in europe argument" is bull.

9-!958: Pele as a 17 year old kid played every knockout match scoring in all of them including the only goal against Wales.

10-1962: Pele scored in the first game Against Mexico (and assisted the first), and got injured in the first 10 in the next. He played the whole match limping since subs were not allowed then. (Pele is injured for the rest of the cup)

11-1966: Scored in first game against Bulgaria and got so beat up he couldn't walk after the game. Had to be rested for second group game (Brazil lost 3-1). In final group game , while Pele was still nursing an injury, João Morais brutally fouled Pelé, but was not sent off by referee George McCabe, of whom it is acknowledged let "the Portuguese get away with murder". He continued the rest of the game limping so badly he couldn't shoot straight.

12-1970: With the card rules finally coming into play, players like pele were protected, and pele at the end of his peak dazzled the world in a mature performance. having the highest assist stat in the cup.

Adjusting for modernization in football: Myth Busting;

The game is faster now:

True, but they did not have to deal with a heavy leather ball that absorbs water, an uneven ground for play, heavy shirts, and often used boots (as was the case in poverty stricken Brazil. It takes real skill to control the ball in uch conditions, which normally makes the game slower. I would like to see R9 or Messi log that ball round in a pitch more like sand dunes than grass.

Defense was tactically crap:

Maybe so, but they knew that too. And due to the lacking of clear punishment (no cards until 1970) and the no-subbing rule. Defense would just target star players, and hack away at their legs, which is the reason the world did not witness Pele at his peak (1962 1966). With all the protection player get now, protection more akin to baby sitting, you would need deep blue to marshal your defense in the future.

Players are more fit now:

Pele was heads and shoulders above everyone else in this regard back then, there is no reason why he would not have the same mentality if he was playing at this era. Maybe if messi goes back to 1960 as he is now, he will be the best player then (unless João Morais hacks his legs off), but if messi was in that era, he would be as fit as they are.

When comparing players from different era, make sure to adjust for inflation please, or you are likely fall to being terribly unjust to such talented players.

Regards, and sorry for this hectic post, I can assure you the original was better organized.

*applause* Quality post but knowing fanboys, they will probably ignore this and bring up Pele has never won a Champions League...oh wait

by Lord Spencer Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:54 am

As for R9, it is really a shame that we never saw his full potential due to the number of injuries he had endured. In fact, R9 is the player most similar to Pele in the last 20 years.

IMO, R9 might be more talented, but Pele edges him in footballing intelligence. Controlling that leather ball was a nightmare. My dad owns a couple mint condition old balls, and shooting a sack of potatoes might be more accurate (not really, but you get the message).

by ChollaVille Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:46 am

Pele never faced defenders like Maldini, Puyol or Vidić Smile

by guest7 Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:52 am

ChollaVille wrote:Pele never faced defenders like Maldini, Puyol or Vidić

Messi never faced a defender trying to break your leg. Smile

Trust me, most of the modern footballers wouldn't be able to take that shit. Most of them would come out with broken legs.

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