How highly do you rate Allegri?

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Post by the xcx Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:42 pm

Im asking this especially from AC Milan fans, because they know him better than I do. But to answer the question mediocre at best.
Whats hes obession of not learning his tactical mistakes?... He keeps playing the same way, which has never worked before..Someone explain, please.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:46 pm

I like his tactics, his tactics vs Barca did far more good than bad.

In fact, I struggle thinking what he did wrong.
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Post by the xcx Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:54 pm

The Franchise wrote:I like his tactics, his tactics vs Barca did far more good than bad.

In fact, I struggle thinking what he did wrong.
I dont know about you, but I found that to be exactly what barcelona wants how their opponents are playing.. Minimal pressure and counter when barcelona loses the ball, which is a rare thing considering how obsessed they are with it.
And then its how AC milan offensively is layed out, most of the time when Milan got the ball they lost it everytime they went forward...Pfft, attack straight for the middle or cross the ball to 16 yard box, meh. Not worth mentioning how grudgy the players are with the ball when it comes to finishing.
Creativity?..there isint any.

Take Bilbao or any other poor side that pressures them enough, they always get away with a result.
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Post by Dante Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:59 pm

Nameless wrote:Im asking this especially from AC Milan fans, because they know him better than I do. But to answer the question mediocre at best.
Whats hes obession of not learning his tactical mistakes?... He keeps playing the same way, which has never worked before..Someone explain, please.

First of all , you claim he doesn't learn from his tactical mistakes .
Fair enough.

But before we can discuss,you have to mention his tactical mistakes first. Playing the same way on regualr basis is not a tactical mistake , it's what all teams do. If anything , it's not a mistake.

"Has never worked before" , is quite false. Allegri isn't here not even 2 full seasons and has won 2 trophies already , plus we ve been a lot better and stroger compared to what we were 2 seasons before him.

Also , our defence have been way more effective due to his tactics and he's not exactly a defensive minded coach as some think.
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Post by the xcx Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:01 pm


Dante13 wrote:
Nameless wrote:Im asking this especially from AC Milan fans, because they know him better than I do. But to answer the question mediocre at best.
Whats hes obession of not learning his tactical mistakes?... He keeps playing the same way, which has never worked before..Someone explain, please.

First of all , you claim he doesn't learn from his tactical mistakes .
Fair enough.

But before we can discuss,you have to mention his tactical mistakes first. Playing the same way on regualr basis is not a tactical mistake , it's what all teams do. If anything , it's not a mistake.

"Has never worked before" , is quite false. Allegri isn't here not even 2 full seasons and has won 2 trophies already , plus we ve been a lot better and stroger compared to what we were 2 seasons before him.

Also , our defence have been way more effective due to his tactics and he's not exactly a defensive minded coach as some think.
Fair enough, but there has been times when I think its the complete opposite.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:11 pm

You can expect Milan to press like Bilbao with the players they have..thats unrealistic.
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Post by dronte Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:16 pm

Yesterday Allegri pretty much failed with the subs imo.
First mistake: bringing on Aquilani to replace one of the best players on the pitch (Prince) when the team was down to a goal. Aquilani, like.. really? Why?

Second mistake: bringing on Pato. Not only because he had to be subbed again, but he hasn't played a match in a long time and he is nowhere good any more.

Third: bringing Maxi Lopez on too late. He could have added a spark like he did for example vs Juve.

Fourth: Robinho played the whole match even though it was obvious that he is one of the worst performers on the pitch.

But otherwise, he is a decent but not extraordinary coach, but too stubborn with his formation and sometimes you just can't understand him (like yesterday)

If anyone can give me logical explanations for his moves then I'm interested.

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Post by BiasedMilanFan3 Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:59 pm

Its pretty widely renowned among Milan fans that Allegri's major weakness is his absolutely s**thouse substitutions
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:11 pm

Allegri didn't do anything wrong apart from the subs, I suppose. Milan don't have the team to pressure up high (which is what I also told my dad whom I had the same disscussion during the game). IMO, Maxi was brought on way too late. In fact I doubt Allegri would have even used him as he send in Pato. Simply put the Penalties costed Allegri in this game.
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Post by dostoevsky Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:14 pm

His substitutions are generally frustrating, however I can give an answer to Dronte's queries. It hinges on the point that Aquilani came on not for Boateng but Seedorf. Pato arrived for Boateng.

The crux of this is that Boateng essentially can't function as a CM in a game where we need to maintain a compact formation and facilitate a quick counter-attack. Seedorf was tiring and Aquilani was the natural replacement for Seedorf, a CM who can keep the ball better than anyone else we had on the pitch once our Dutch Master left the pitch and could theoretically launch the balls we needed to get in behind the defence from afar or to switch play quickly.

That Boateng was the midfielder to be sacrificed when Allegri wanted another striker on the pitch stems from this. With three forwards with low work rates, Allegri couldn't hold the midfield with a natural AM dropping deep and the last thing we needed was a rout. When Pato came on, it wasn't Robinho but Ibrahimovic who dropped into a sort of attacking midfield position most regularly, hoping that he might be able to open up an avenue into attack for Robinho and Pato to use their speed and individual technique to force something. Boateng, like Seedorf, has only just returned from injury and has had only a few games under his belt, so fatigue was likely an issue, Boateng hadn't done much in the second half to be honest. With Seedorf and Boateng off the pitch we didn't have a natural AM - Emanuelson is not who you need in that position when desperately trying to break down Barcelona - and with a striker needing to drop deep for the role, Allegri likely didn't want to sacrifice firepower up front.

I honestly don't believe Max was planning on making a third substitution, though I personally would have put on Emanuelson for Nocerino in the second half, so the Maxi sub was just due to Pato's injury and nothing else likely.

This post is conjecture for his reasoning based upon what I saw realised on the pitch, however I hope that was helpful. His substitutions weren't what I would have chosen, but at least I believe they were justifiable. Emanuelson staying on the bench was what I found to be a strange omission. I don't like him as an AM, however his pace and relative confidence on the ball in central midfield on the break would have been perfect.
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Post by Ganso Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:15 pm

His tactics were spot on,penalties had nothing to do with him.I blame thiago for not being there lol
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Post by dostoevsky Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:17 pm

Ganso wrote:His tactics were spot on,penalties had nothing to do with him.I blame thiago for not being there lol

Mexes looked so unbelievably slow this morning. I would have loved to see what we could do with Thiago Silva in the backline.
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:26 pm

dostoevsky wrote:

Mexes looked so unbelievably slow this morning. I would have loved to see what we could do with Thiago Silva in the backline.

I noticed the same thing about Mexes. He's usually decent Mentally but yesterday he looked too slow and steady if you catch my drift.

Thiago and Cassano were huge losses indeed Ganso. Though Barca don't have Abidal either.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:36 pm

His tactics are actually fine in serie A. The league position shows that. I just think in Europe against big teams he's not really changing enough. It's obvious Robinho was doing nothing and KPB was always a big threat but he kept 'Binho on for a long time and subbed KPB.

He should have used Maxi who would give Barcelona something to think about with his strength and height. Not to mention against big teams Robinho has the tendancy to f*ck up his dribbling and waste the ball.
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Post by Ganso Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:37 pm

puyol is almost abidal 2.0 as a lb,just slower
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Post by Ganso Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:38 pm

TomJuve wrote:His tactics are actually fine in serie A. The league position shows that. I just think in Europe against big teams he's not really changing enough. It's obvious Robinho was doing nothing and KPB was always a big threat but he kept 'Binho on for a long time and subbed KPB.

He should have used Maxi who would give Barcelona something to think about with his strength and height. Not to mention against big teams Robinho has the tendancy to f*ck up his dribbling and waste the ball.
how did robinho do nothing?he originated our goal
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:39 pm

Oh man this again....

I for one will not re-explain Allegri's Milan and how they play within the Serie A or any other team other than Barca in general as I'm sure you haven't watched Milan enough for that. So basically, how you label that Milan play always the same way... is incredibly incorrect. Milan play a relatively attacking game with high pressure and pressing and with preference in possession but very tactical off the ball movement and "think first, pass later" on ball possession. This is a very simplified version.

Here we have Barcelona, also known as the best team in the world, also known as by some as the best team of all time. So therefore, Allegri instead of going head on against them with a very limited to squad who are also riddled with injuries, he decides learn their weaknesses.

The first group stage game at Camp Nou involved Milan sitting deep in counter attacking positions while attempting to further capitalize on Pato's opener. Unfortunately, since our midfield does not possess the pace nor mobility to catalyze a counter, Milan has no other choice but to have their backline deep and midfield tracking back. Allegri's gameplan for the 1st game in the GS as stated was to observe Barca in various situations. And defensively, Milan were superb as their only goal in open play came from Pedro which was actually just a mistake by Abbiati while the 2nd was a incredible FK from Villa from a Cassano foul. It was a relatively defensive performance, but in the end it made sense. Notes on the match were that MvB wonderfully played a deep DM role while Cassano and Pato were used to support each other. Unfortunately it did not work given their lack of chemistry and failure to capitalize on their chances. But it had to be done given the injuries.

The 2nd match of the group stage involved Allegri's Milan playing their usual attacking and expansive football while pressing harder and pressuring their wider players. Barca were the better team and won 3-2 (although the penalty for them was incredibly soft as even Barca fans agree) but Milan certainly was not outplayed as fans and staff alike were satisfied with the performance. That day Milan found weaknesses in Barca's overall system.

The 1st leg at San Siro involved intense pressing by Milan yet eventually and understandably being outmatched by Barca in this trait, Allegri commanded the team to stay more deep again. Difference is, instead of chasing shadows after Barca players and have one man to mark Messi, Milan intelligently had the plan to anticipate oncoming runs from Messi and read Barca's game rather than chase after it. Our defense was incredibly compact and organized while Allegri seemed to have an inverted triangle for his midfield to counter Barca' triangular passing while the backline was relatively flat. Keep in mind it had to stay flat given Bonera's complete lack of defensive or attacking ability and Antonini's lack of defensive skill. Keeping the backline flat allowed Bonera and Antonini to have the coverage of Mexes and Nesta as this plan worked to great effect as it worked essentially as one cohesive defensive unit. The midfield was composed of Ambrosini, Seedorf and Nocerino as 2 of the 3 possess absolutely no pace which is why the were ordered to stay deeper and static while Nocerino's role is to traverse down his own side and combine with Prince Boateng whose job is to press the opposition and act as the TQ to Robinho and Ibra, both who played as SS's.

Why our attack did not work was because of Robinho's complete lack of support to Ibra and his inept off and on ball movement and decisions while Ibra was effective in his playmaking role as he created 3 wonderful chances sending Nocerino, Urby on goal and setting up Robinho for his world class miss.


How highly do you rate Allegri? Ibra-balls-received-
Zlatans wonderful passing game in the 1st leg.


Keep in mind this leg we were without Cassano, Pato, MvB, Abate, Silva, Merkel, and the DM partnership of Flamini and Gattuso (although they aren't as vital) all who are vital cogs in the system which is why Allegri HAD to compromise.


The 2nd half Milan pressed more effectively and played more attacking which embodies Allegris tre quadranti del sistema (which really means a 3 quadrant system [3 quadrants of play during the match]). So the 1st half involved anticipatory attacking positions while also anticipating Barca's attacking play if Milan's pressing fails. Coming back to the 2nd half, Milan played more risky and pressed higher with their midfield yet unfortunately this did not work to great effect as KPB and Nesta both had to come off for Mesbah and the ineffective Urby which compromised the system yet again.

All in all, Barca dominated the 1st leg, but plan was for Milan to only take their few chances while having a compact and cohesive defense. Allegri's tactics were SPOT ON. Unfortunately many of our players did not take their chances along with not capitalizing on the opportunities the system gave them.


How highly do you rate Allegri? Milan-Attacking-Direction

To counter your point on his one sided attacking play as here you can see the balance distinctly.

The 2nd leg was more of the same as in the 1st half, Milan had the midfield pressed higher while the backline was deeper in the anticipatory reading positions for Barca's play. Milan did fairly well to cope with the increasingly wider defense through Barca's play as Abate in particular was responsible of his dual role to thwart Barca's Cuenca and solidify the gaps within the box. Antonini on the other hand with his positioning compromised the otherwise solid backline many times which cost us a penalty and chances created from Barca.
In particular, Allegri made sure that the center backs would never be one on one with Messi, as he wanted to have one of the three withdrawn players (Seedorf, Ambrosini, Nocerino who all have the tendency to sit deep) force Messi wide, and give time for players to make recovering runs to get in between him and the goal.

How highly do you rate Allegri? WhoscoredStats

The 2nd half involved Milan to press even higher with more attacking and expansive play yet Mexes once again is at fault for not marking iniesta after the Messi deflection as he is only to blame for his school boy error. I for one do not consider this a legitimate chance created for Barca. An individual mistake it is.

Robinho this time around was actually more effective How highly do you rate Allegri? 06CNK

Unlike the first horrorshow leg, he actually dropped deep and tracked back while keeping hold of his positioning for Ibra, yet unfortunately Zlatan was being even more heavily marked this time around and could only provide a few key passes and an assist.

Allegri's sole mistake of the tie was playing Nocerino instead of Aquilani for both matches as he was incredibly ineffective with his play while Aquilani had shown he can be effective against Barca with his solid performances against them in the group stages and even his small sub yesterday. KPB for all those geniuses wondering why he was subbed off, was poor yesterday. He failed to follow through with his dual role of pressing the opposition while vertically challenging them on the ball as most of the time he was horizontal and looked lost. Aquilani stabilized Milan's passing and was more effective. Although Prince can be forgiven due to Nocerino not providing his role of supporting him.

All in all, Allegri was 99% spot on and made displayed some very effective and intelligent tactical decisions and plays within the tie, yet it was our players lack of composure and lack of ability to follow through with the intelligent system provided (midfield is at fault here). Do I really need to name the chances created in open play and in front of the net? Barca were the better team, but marginally so. You cannot expect Milan to play like Valencia and Bilbao given how riddled this squad is with injuries or even then, with the starters alone.

For all those wondering why he doesn't change his formation. I don't need to mention how poor we are with a 4-3-3 given our squad limitations. Want proof? How about the 4-2-3-1? One word. Suicide. Choose any formation as it all comes down to Allegri's 4-3-1-2/4-1-2-1-2 as the single most effective formation for Milan.

I don't need to make excuses about SES's tackle in the box in the 2nd half of the 1st leg or Zlatan not being given a penalty yesterday (should have been given). The problem isn't primarily down to injuries. Its the complete lack of delivery provided to Allegri by the board as Galliani has failed to provided Allegri with the players needed to follow through with his system. Which is why he has had to compromise and start from scratch many many times. Like on the midfield is lacking any pace or mobility with their age, or how our LBs cannot defend and our RB is not much of an attacker (fullbacks needed for the system in order to provide the necessary width) I mean at least Galliani can provide some balance to the squad which obviously is lacking. I could go on. I mean could Galliani really not afford to keep Pirlo in his wages? All I see is Allegri receiving praise from fans and journalists alike (or Mou when voting for him in Manager of the year, or Pep praising him numerous times, or Trap, Sacchi, Cappello, Lippi, Hitzfeld).

The fact is he has made mistakes like anyone else but has time and time again shown to learn from them. His tactics have been one of the deciding factors in our successes this year as especially given our squad injuries and lack of balance. He can be blamed for some decisions earlier on in the season. But on a whole, he has been outstanding.


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Post by DeviAngel Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:41 pm

He is smart coach but still needs work to be among the best tbh
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:42 pm

Ganso wrote:puyol is almost abidal 2.0 as a lb,just slower

Yeah but Masch is not Puyol even at CB.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:43 pm

Ibra made the killer pass to Nocerino. Yeah Robinho had a good dribble but compare that to his misses over the group stage and 1st leg and the ammount of times he misplaced passes and ran into trouble.
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:46 pm

Arq why do you write so much bro? Razz

How was Nocerino ineffective? The man scored fgs. Ibra was the one who made so many incorrect decisions (bar the assist to Nocerino) eveytime he laid a cross or pass it was intercepted. Robinho wasn't too bright as well.
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Post by baresi Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:47 pm

I for one admire Allegri, the man is growing in my eyes by time, and every game he shows me why he has been labeled as the best coach in the league even when the likes of Mourinho were in Serie A.

I will write a very detailed reply on this matter, when I get in the mood and get the time for it, but I would dare say that TACTICALLY he is better than Ancelotti, he has some aspects he needs to improve on. But write down in details later.
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Post by DeviAngel Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:48 pm

baresi wrote:I for one admire Allegri, the man is growing in my eyes by time, and every game he shows me why he has been labeled as the best coach in the league even when the likes of Mourinho were in Serie A.

I will write a very detailed reply on this matter, when I get in the mood and get the time for it, but I would dare say that TACTICALLY he is better than Ancelotti, he has some aspects he needs to improve on. But write down in details later.

I never rated Ancelotti lol

Alegri > Ancelotti
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Post by baresi Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:50 pm

DeviAngel wrote:
baresi wrote:I for one admire Allegri, the man is growing in my eyes by time, and every game he shows me why he has been labeled as the best coach in the league even when the likes of Mourinho were in Serie A.

I will write a very detailed reply on this matter, when I get in the mood and get the time for it, but I would dare say that TACTICALLY he is better than Ancelotti, he has some aspects he needs to improve on. But write down in details later.

I never rated Ancelotti lol

Alegri > Ancelotti
too bad, cause I would simply say Ancelotti is one of the best out there.
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Post by DeviAngel Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:53 pm

baresi wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:
baresi wrote:I for one admire Allegri, the man is growing in my eyes by time, and every game he shows me why he has been labeled as the best coach in the league even when the likes of Mourinho were in Serie A.

I will write a very detailed reply on this matter, when I get in the mood and get the time for it, but I would dare say that TACTICALLY he is better than Ancelotti, he has some aspects he needs to improve on. But write down in details later.

I never rated Ancelotti lol

Alegri > Ancelotti
too bad, cause I would simply say Ancelotti is one of the best out there.

I understand that and I know why he brought u so many trophies but in my eyes ...
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