The Three Lions

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Post by Forza Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:29 pm

A lot of criticism of Rooney here. Are people forgetting that the only top, top quality pass played by any England player during the course of this game was off his boot and resulted in a goal? I agree with TenMenWonTheLeague in that Rooney is marginalised out wide. I think he's going to have to settle for being the second striker in this team unless the formation changes. Of course, he wasted some chances and looked outright lethargic after 70 minutes, but that might also be partly because of his role as a winger in that game. There's really no reason to put Rooney in a position where he has to track back IMO.

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Post by McLewis Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:30 pm

From a technical standpoint, this was one of the better England sides I've seen. Sleek movement, excellent dribbling and they really got at Italy with their pace. That's the England that we should be seeing on a regular basis. Inexperience beat this side tonight. Italy just know how to grind through games like this and Prandelli was savvy enough to really batten down the hatches with Motta coming on (making Immobile's sub a bit redundant). England don't have that nous and know-how yet. When they do, they will truly be dangerous. Last night was just a very encouraging first step towards that.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:31 pm

Rooney played well for the first hour i felt, but after he missed that chance where he gave Sirigu the eyes and sent it wide he seemed to feel responsible for losing and tried to hard to rectify it.

Story of Rooney's international career really, he knows he's the no 1 guy and tries too hard to win the game for us.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:35 pm

It's not hate, it's called being a realist.

This is a thread giving respect to England for losing, IMO getting there tactics wrong and letting up the highest passing efficiency rate in the history of the World Cup at over 90% to an Italy team largely breaking in a new starting lineup.

Wow, great job lads. I'll give them this, at least they didn't go to the hotel and throw a drinking and Cigar smoking party after the match like in 2010.

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Post by Kaladin Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:43 pm

England have a great slew of youngsters mixed with experienced players, it'd be frightening to imagine that Sterling and Sturridge are still early in their career. They scared me each time one of them got on the ball.

This thread is respecting England's showing yesterday, Italy were extremely lucky not to concede more than a goal yesterday. They were the more dangerous team, and they assaulted all fronts. You have to give credit where credit is due.
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:23 pm

The premise of this thread goes beyond it being easy for me to show respect for England just because they won, as very very few times you will see me speak of the losing opponents in such fashion. The point is to highlight a facet in football to which the game needs more in a time of theatrics, poor ethic and the ugly emotional polarities of football.

We've already established that yesterday WAS a tactical marvel between both teams INTERDEPENDENTLY between each other. We've established that it was a clean game of sportsmanship and class conduct between the two; RED highlights the respect between each other as he is correct. In such a long and drawn out build up between the two nations you would expect an incremental display of emotion and banter yet here stood two teams as cool-headed as a glacier, in the absurd extreme climate of the Amazonian Manaus.

The point is to highlight that England lost, yet was not the loss that must be scrutinized in such negative fashion as are most black and white analysis of the winner-loser between two teams (one that is stronger in such a stage). Furthermore, the point is to highlight that England simply lost yet they cannot be ridiculed for it. Why? The immense totality of the positives that can be extracted from their loss easily outnumbers what they could have done or all the hindsight approaches that accompany a loss. What positives?

-England finally are finding a sense of identity lost in the Mid-90s of chaos within their youth ranks and all too head first approach in the competitions. Their youth ranks are producing players who combine the stereotyped attributes of pace, power, endurance combined with a technical flair and mental swagger that was clearly on display yesterday.

-Raheem Sterling in his World Cup début thrived in his VERY liberal role as if he's had years of World Cup experience.
-Ross Barkley a multi-dimensional AM who provides beyond what a typical physically inept AM does; the Evertonian is an AM built for the modern game.
-Gerrard-Henderson partnership seamlessly blends silk n' steel, Gerrard providing the tutelage to a Henderson being honed for future leadership reign for the Three Lions.
-Daniel Sturridge
-Added options such as Jack Wilshere, Kieran Gibbs, Luke Shaw, Lallana, Jon Flanagan and who is one that I strongly believe the TOP of England's talent CROP; Alex Oxlaide Chamberlain.
-An approach that was not head-first-thought later yet carefully timed to apprehensively find space in the compact Italian defence, variable in style of play choosing the counter in the first half of the game than the transition to heavy possession as a signal of their intent to score and beyond their usual spectrum. Calculative, cerebral, measured were adjectives to describe the team yet they left none of their strengths of yore in exploiting their pace on the wide flanks, endurance and that signature mental fortitude in which we so love about the English. They looked like a team inwardly figuring out how to rise above their nascences (2nd youngest team in the World Cup) yet CONVICTION was prevalent and AUTHORITY stamped on all ends which if not for Italia's insanely meticulous preparation for the game, it could have been a vastly different result.

We need more matches such as these in football, one that both teams win or lose can praise and learn from each others aptitude and forgo the usual polar criticisms to which England do not deserve. We need more matches that deploy two sides of polar philosophy yet only play for a greater cause than 3 points at all costs.

Yes they made mistakes in not taking the game to Italia to utilize a physically superior squad. Or that it would be wise to focus on Pirlo, ignoring what happens when the ball is laid upon Verratti, Marchisio and DDR. Or the impulsive (yet still positive) substitutions which were more reaction to Prandelli's subs, keeping the Italian barely one step ahead.

Why look at all the things England did wrong (though constructive criticism is key to optimizing) and why not look at all the multitude of factors that they did right?

Responsible for giving Italia the highest pass accuracy since 1966? What do you think will happen when you have a completely ambidextrous midfield of technical masters in Pirlo, DDR, Marchisio, Verratti or beyond just them? It is not as if England were stupid enough to rush the Azzuri, as such would be its irresponsibility in the climate yesterday.

Roy Hodgson, quite frankly has done a solid job with England yet I do feel a manager of his calibre IS punching above his weight. One must imagine what England can do with a manager who can be deemed worthy of their pedigree and who combines all the tactical nous of Capello with the deep empathy of Roy.

The Italians whether in Italia or abroad hold this subtle respect for England and the English when not cracking jokes of light banter. There is much we can learn from what they do best and how they react to situations in which Italiani can be stubborn in that reprisal. It is one of the reasons an evenly matched head-to-head between England and Italia will rise as a footballing great and one that I will always look forward to now. I can speak for the general sentiment of Italiani that we do wish you the best in the tournament, facing you again would not be preferable as there is a reason why Italiani as a whole are usually sceptical when faced off versus the English.


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Post by RED Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:29 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:It's not hate, it's called being a Troll.



Fixed that for you
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Post by RED Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:31 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:But Tom where are people saying any different? no one is saying they are going to stroll to the Semi's or anything.

People are saying they played well against a side which easily end up in the semi's and it gives the country positivity going forward into future tournament and that's it.

People just like to deflect any positivity regarding England for some reason.


A lot of members on this board have this stigma towards England that they equate praising/positivity= Overrating.

Not directing that towards Tom. Just a general perception.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:57 pm

I think England were very good in the first half and up until around 65th minute and then they just ran out of ideas and energy.

Hodgson's tactical mistake of removing Sterling from #10 position and isolating him out-wide (Where he was facing 2-3 Italians all the time) killed England's threats.

Welbeck was very good and it's baffling how he was subbed and not Rooney. Rooney, assist aside, was totally invisible. He allowed Baines to get dominated 2 to 1 all match, and his corner and shot just sums the fat potato up.

Really, Rooney is a good player. but so is Cesc.Rooney is a cancer to this England side, the same way Cesc was to Barca.
He just doesn't fit. He is not a good #10, Sturridge is a better #9. so that means Rooney has to go on bench.

Very disappointed at Cahill's defending for Balo's goal. Thought he was better than that.

MOTM for England: Sterling, Welbeck, Sturridge

Joe Hart was a clown as per se again.

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Post by elitedam Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:23 pm

It's too bad about the second half though. They were understandably dead tired. I hate the corrupt scum responsible for building a stadium in the middle of the Amazon.
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Post by Dnmac4 Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:49 pm

RED wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:It's not hate, it's called being a Troll.



Fixed that for you


LOL, I'm being a troll?

Nothing I said was incorrect nor am I dull enough to sit here and think this team is going to just beat Uruguay in South America like I have seen multiple people mention on here.

Here's a quote from you

"A lot of members on this board have this stigma towards England that they equate praising/positivity= Overrating."

LOL this is one of the worst quotes I have ever read on this board.  We have a stigma towards England for praising = overrating???

No, England fans and media have done this all by themselves for decades they have been praising and overrating this team not to mention underrating there opposition and other teams cough Uruguay cough

How is praising a team for getting beat,
-Setting a record for passing percentage against
-Getting scored on by schoolboy mistakes from a set piece
-Letting a 36 year old stroll around the pitch w/o a care in the world (Holland were all over Xavi)
-Forcing Rooney in the lineup so as one of your flanks was exposed all game long,
-Getting the substitutions wrong outside of Barkley and leaving potential game changers on your bench
-Having your midfield partnership get raped  
-Not be fit enough to have any kind of threat after the 70th minute

And to finish it off pretend like this was a step in the right direction for England because they have some attacking young talent and can use the WORLD FREAKING CUP as a training ground so they can get some experience.

How is all of that not Overrating? But no we have a stigma and to point it out is being a troll.  We should all just hold hands and marvel at the way England lost to an experimental Italy team.

Hell the general theme of this thread from the pro-England crowd is yesterday although England lost was that they played really well, were very positive, were on equal terms with Italy for much of the game and the game could have gone either way plus they should have no problem moving forward and sweeping aside Uruguay.

That is Trolling.

Uruguay is going to kill this team.  Costa Rica is going to take points off of them too.  I will say again everyone and there mother knew yesterday's game was going to be a draw or a 2-1 Italy win so how in the world are we trolling?

Being reasonable, pointing out facts backed by record setting ineptitude and being able to judge a game fairly is not trolling.

And can we as a board stop this whole England are affected by the weather and at a massive disadvantage crap here and now?

The last time I checked there weren't many rain forests in Europe. Every team from Europe has to deal with this, England isn't some charity case.
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Post by B-Mac Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:59 pm

lol some people's blind hate towards england rofl

the nerve of them to play decent football for once with a group of youngsters Evil or Very Mad
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Post by adun101 Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:40 pm

Arquitescu wrote:The immense totality of the positives that can be extracted from their loss easily outnumbers what they could have done or all the hindsight approaches that accompany a loss. What positives?

-England finally are finding a sense of identity lost in the Mid-90s of chaos within their youth ranks and all too head first approach in the competitions. Their youth ranks are producing players who combine the stereotyped attributes of pace, power, endurance combined with a technical flair and mental swagger that was clearly on display yesterday.

-Raheem Sterling in his World Cup début thrived in his VERY liberal role as if he's had years of World Cup experience.
-Ross Barkley a multi-dimensional AM who provides beyond what a typical physically inept AM does; the Evertonian is an AM built for the modern game.
-Gerrard-Henderson partnership seamlessly blends silk n' steel, Gerrard providing the tutelage to a Henderson being honed for future leadership reign for the Three Lions.
-Daniel Sturridge
-Added options such as Jack Wilshere, Kieran Gibbs, Luke Shaw, Lallana, Jon Flanagan and who is one that I strongly believe the TOP of England's talent CROP; Alex Oxlaide Chamberlain.
-An approach that was not head-first-thought later yet carefully timed to apprehensively find space in the compact Italian defence, variable in style of play choosing the counter in the first half of the game than the transition to heavy possession as a signal of their intent to score and beyond their usual spectrum. Calculative, cerebral, measured were adjectives to describe the team yet they left none of their strengths of yore in exploiting their pace on the wide flanks, endurance and that signature mental fortitude in which we so love about the English. They looked like a team inwardly figuring out how to rise above their nascences (2nd youngest team in the World Cup) yet CONVICTION was prevalent and AUTHORITY stamped on all ends which if not for Italia's insanely meticulous preparation for the game, it could have been a vastly different result.


"The immense totality of the positives that can be extracted from their loss"  - there are only two: I put them in bold, the rest don't apply to this match.


The other impression is that England were a tactical mess.

They tried to press high with their front four, but they were mostly just watching the Italians pass the ball around them, forcing Gerard and Henderson to step up and press, then that left Candreva and Marchisio in behind them with room to run at their defense. All of this while whoever was on the left (Rooney in the 1st, Welbeck in the second, then Sterling for a couple of minutes and Rooney again) could just not help himself drifting centrally and leaving Darmian run free

You either press with the entire team, or just sit back and defend with proper wingers
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Post by Peccadillo Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:45 am

You either press with the entire team or sit back and defend with proper wingers? wtf is that rule?
Quick question to test your "theory";
a) Does Italy press the entire team?
b) Did Italy use proper wingers?

Well the answer is not at all and no - ergo, Italy were also a tactical mess I take it?

And these talks of Pirlo as an "old man" that England couldnt even control... Actually I personally think England did a solid job of keeping Pirlo quiet. He is 35 - he is not an old man - I am sure this will be his last world cup but he is HARDLY past it - especially considering his game for the past 5-6 years he barely runs off the ball and does not press at all. He is only a year older than Gerrard ffs, but god forbid anyone use Gerrards age as an excuse.

Man people are so blind-sided. Pirlo is an AMAZING player who I have nothing but respect for.. but really.. For example everyone was raving about his dummy for Marchisios goal like it was an act of god... It was a trained and tested corner. It said nothing about Pirlos "divine" awareness.

You have to understand any praise directed towards England works under the pretense that everybody knows England are not as good as Italy. They were the underdogs. A nation that in recent history have comprised of players who seem to perform only for club and not country. A nation whos technical inadequacy have struggled to allow us to match serious teams on the international stage. People are praising Australias performance against Chile - Yet in reality, they were pants! But do you have a problem with their praise? I suppose not.

You are deluding yourself if you think that Italy dominated that game. Yes they did what many of us (including England fans) expected might happen, but the game was quite evenly matched. If you dont believe me, look at the stats - that is not a team that dominated a win.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255931/match=300186513/statistics.html

Dnmac your opinions are outdated - No one in England that knows anything about football overrate England or their chances of winning anything. If you can produce one quote or even a newspaper article that supports it I will be shocked. It's a myth - just like your assertion that anyone is trying to claim that England are disadvantaged by the weather? You are delusional - show me your evidence.
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Post by BeautifulGame Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:42 am

Italy hardly dominated England it was a very even game until the 2nd goal went in. Then Italy with their experience saw through the match .

England fans are happy probably becoz after what happened in Euros the progress of the team is marked .Anyone thinking otherwise is deluded .Not just in style of play but also in quality of the team.

Eight of their starting XI played their first world cup match.With couple of years of experience they will have a decent chance of making an impact in next Euors.
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Post by McAgger Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:52 am

After the world cup Woy needs to completely faze out Gerrard, Lampard, Johnson, Rooney, A.Cole, Carrick, Barry, etc. No more call ups for any of them.

Need to completely put trust into the youngsters and groom them for Russia '18.
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Post by BeautifulGame Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:01 am

For the Euros England need to build on this attack IMO

Ox.        Sturridge.      Walcott

              Sterling

    Henderson.    Wilshere/Another DM

Also need to build the defence with likes of Shaw Stones Flanno /Clyne .They will have a very good squad for Euros as long as they keep this style of play IMO.That attack will be lethel on counters
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:06 pm

adun101 wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:The immense totality of the positives that can be extracted from their loss easily outnumbers what they could have done or all the hindsight approaches that accompany a loss. What positives?

-England finally are finding a sense of identity lost in the Mid-90s of chaos within their youth ranks and all too head first approach in the competitions. Their youth ranks are producing players who combine the stereotyped attributes of pace, power, endurance combined with a technical flair and mental swagger that was clearly on display yesterday.

-Raheem Sterling in his World Cup début thrived in his VERY liberal role as if he's had years of World Cup experience.
-Ross Barkley a multi-dimensional AM who provides beyond what a typical physically inept AM does; the Evertonian is an AM built for the modern game.
-Gerrard-Henderson partnership seamlessly blends silk n' steel, Gerrard providing the tutelage to a Henderson being honed for future leadership reign for the Three Lions.
-Daniel Sturridge
-Added options such as Jack Wilshere, Kieran Gibbs, Luke Shaw, Lallana, Jon Flanagan and who is one that I strongly believe the TOP of England's talent CROP; Alex Oxlaide Chamberlain.
-An approach that was not head-first-thought later yet carefully timed to apprehensively find space in the compact Italian defence, variable in style of play choosing the counter in the first half of the game than the transition to heavy possession as a signal of their intent to score and beyond their usual spectrum. Calculative, cerebral, measured were adjectives to describe the team yet they left none of their strengths of yore in exploiting their pace on the wide flanks, endurance and that signature mental fortitude in which we so love about the English. They looked like a team inwardly figuring out how to rise above their nascences (2nd youngest team in the World Cup) yet CONVICTION was prevalent and AUTHORITY stamped on all ends which if not for Italia's insanely meticulous preparation for the game, it could have been a vastly different result.


"The immense totality of the positives that can be extracted from their loss"  - there are only two: I put them in bold, the rest don't apply to this match.


The other impression is that England were a tactical mess.

They tried to press high with their front four, but they were mostly just watching the Italians pass the ball around them, forcing Gerard and Henderson to step up and press, then that left Candreva and Marchisio in behind them with room to run at their defense. All of this while whoever was on the left (Rooney in the 1st, Welbeck in the second, then Sterling for a couple of minutes and Rooney again) could just not help himself drifting centrally and leaving Darmian run free

You either press with the entire team, or just sit back and defend with proper wingers


I disagree with your assessment with the positives and that is purely due to the positives being named, an element England did not possess before the emergence of their recent talent. Yet I enjoyed your brief tactical analysis.

We can go all day in analysing the shape to which was closer as a 4-5-1- than a 4-1-4-1 yet the roles must be analysed; in that respect that Italian midfield choosing to protect the ball vis-à-vis on the ball by directing it inside where the English midfield had no chance to recover, was key to retaining possession. Candreva acting as the auxiliary outlet to release himself purely to cross to Balotelli is what consistently caught the English off-guard considering the change of tempo when placed to the Laziale's feet, Darmian playing a very successful role in his overlap to provide the service. Marchisio given that liberal role to run on or off the ball provided a different element on the left hand side; one that possession was recycled more closer to given he excels in that element. It was the overall balance that won Italia as there simply was no tactical weakness unless you count Cheillio looking immensely uncomfortable in that maligned LB role.
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Post by adun101 Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:52 am

Peccadillo wrote:You either press with the entire team or sit back and defend with proper wingers? wtf is that rule?

Well, I can't really think of other ways to not leave huge spaces between your lines and this one is pretty much a rule


Quick question to test your "theory";
a) Does Italy press the entire team?
b) Did Italy use proper wingers?

Well the answer is not at all and no - ergo, Italy were also a tactical mess I take it?    

a) They didn't pressed throughout the match, either b/c of the climate or b/c you can't really do it with Pirlo and Verratti, or both. They only pressed when they lost possession high with almost the entire team in the other half in order to prevent counterattacks and yes, they did it with the whole team

b) when I said proper, I didn't mean natural wingers, more like disciplined players on the wings, something that Marchisio and Candreva were a lot more than England's wingers; how many times have you seen fullbacks left free to cross or Chiellini/Darmian against 2 opponents? I remember Marchisio leaving Johnson one time, but outside of that almost all of England's chances came from individual plays by Sterling and Sturridge, not from people being out of position, the goal and Rooney's chance (Chiellini late to step up for offside) being the exceptions



Man people are so blind-sided. Pirlo is an AMAZING player who I have nothing but respect for.. but really.. For example everyone was raving about his dummy for Marchisios goal like it was an act of god... It was a trained and tested corner. It said nothing about Pirlos "divine" awareness.

I agree with the "divine" thing, but then, for the last 3 years I've seen Pirlo kick 30 yds one touch passes to guys outside of his vision cone 2-3 times a game, so there's that

You have to understand any praise directed towards England works under the pretense that everybody knows England are not as good as Italy. They were the underdogs. A nation that in recent history have comprised of players who seem to perform only for club and not country. A nation whos technical inadequacy have struggled to allow us to match serious teams on the international stage. People are praising Australias performance against Chile - Yet in reality, they were pants! But do you have a problem with their praise? I suppose not.

You are deluding yourself if you think that Italy dominated that game. Yes they did what many of us (including England fans) expected might happen, but the game was quite evenly matched. If you dont believe me, look at the stats - that is not a team that dominated a win.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255931/match=300186513/statistics.html




Since you asked, I wasn't crazy about Italy's tactics, they will need to change a few things if they want to go far. But at the same time these tactics were good enough vs this England, I was left with the impression that they were the better team without playing very well. If you want to call it an even game, you're entitled to your own opinion

My other answers are in bold
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Post by McAgger Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:05 pm

Woy Proud

https://vine.co/v/MjaB1dUY9AY
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Post by B-Mac Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:15 pm

McAgger wrote:Woy Proud

https://vine.co/v/MjaB1dUY9AY


rofl
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:03 pm

B-Mac wrote:
McAgger wrote:Woy Proud

https://vine.co/v/MjaB1dUY9AY


rofl


rofl rofl
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:15 pm

where has the 'REspect for England' thread gone?

Disintegrated into thin air? Like the supposed new spirit of the English team?
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:18 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Let's all pity-*bleep* England!!


I'd like to pity *bleep* England some more, but I can't seem to get it up.
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Post by Jay29 Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:06 pm

I can't even defend Hodgson anymore. How can you take players like Wilshere, Barkley and Lallana but end up playing Welbeck or Rooney on the wing? Four of the last five games he starts with Welbeck, Rooney and Sturridge together and we won none of them. In each one, he takes them both off and suddenly we look better. Not enough to convince Hodgson to start those players, though.

Less said about our defence the better.

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Post by chemicalboy99 Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:09 pm

Credit to Dnmac4....he's stayed off the Kool Aid!!!

This England team stinks.

Easily the worse we've had.
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Post by Sponsored content


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