The Three Lions

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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:00 pm

I still like Carrick, regardless of what kind of season he and Utd have had. He, like Busquets will always suffer if the structure isnt right because he needs to it in place so he can make the difference.

Though, Gerrard has that place on lock now so its pointless talking about it.

I dont buy the Rodgers talk (which I am sure was just one of those things coaches say for various reasons) that he is the "best holding midfielder around".

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Post by McAgger Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:25 pm

Gerrard is not a holding midfielder. Not really. He just occupies that space where you'd normally have a DM. He's a regista. But he's a very good tackler and can read the game decently defensively so he takes on that role as well. But he's a regista a la Pirlo which is why it's imperative for us to have 2 very high energy CM's playing in the channels in front of him who can run back and forth and who can help defensively.

Another reason why this last season when Hendo got a 3 game suspension, our whole title challenge fell apart in his absence. Gerrard ain't a DM.

That's the difference between how Woy and Rodgers play Stevie as well. Rodgers plays him as a regista who also does defensive work. Woy plays him as a DM wo also does play making work. Slight change that makes a world of difference.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:32 pm

Well I dont like to confuse the situations too much, I think the role he plays (for Pool) is very comparable to the likes of Busquets. The days of a holding midfield being in there for their defending alone is gone, its about their intelligence with and without the ball in possession.

This is faulty thinking to some degree (because the advantage of Busquets being capable of defending his space is big) but it is the situation we are in now.

I dont think its Roy's intention to use him that way (as you said), its just Rodgers is a million miles more modern and intelligent and understands about spacing and midfield movement and therefore is able to use Gerrard in that role to a positive. Roy's obviously still behind the times in terms of tactics and innovations.
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Post by Zealous Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:07 am

Damn I hope Ox can heal quicker than expected. Him and Barkley are probably the two players that I think can create something special for England in an international tournament.

I would add Sterling to the two mentioned above but he seems too eager to impress atm.

My England team;

-----------------Hart-----------------
Stones/Flanagan--Cahill---Jagielka---Baines--
Oxlade--Gerrard----Henderson--Sterling
-------------Barkley-------------------
----------------------Sturridge--------

Wilshere and Roonay can provide the extra spark if needed. hmm
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Post by urbaNRoots Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:22 am

I agree with Z's XI, but I would still have Wilshere instead of Barkley there if he's 100% fit but Barkley is cool there aswell. I just don't want to see Rooney play in that position behind Studge. Rooney should either play alone upfront or on the left.
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Post by chinomaster182 Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:35 am

Once Mexico is unceremoniously dumped from the cup i'm all aboard the three lions hype train  bounce 
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Post by RED Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:06 pm

I'm gutted Ox is injured...at the worse possible time. Sad

Our best player by far v Ecuador the other day.
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Post by RealGunner Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:02 am

So what we thinking after the Honduras match?

Think it's pretty clear for everyone to see what's what. Roy has his 1st team planned, but both the times he put out a different team, they both outperformed his original planned team. No doubt there were factors involved like honduras being 10 men but it's not rocket science to figure out the problems and the potential solutions.

This team is 99% going to start against Italy

--------------------Hart--------------------------
Johnson-------Cahill------Jagielka--------Baines
-------------------Gerrard-----------------------
-----------Henderson---------------------------
Lallana---------------Rooney--------------Sterling
--------------------Sturridge---------------------

On paper that team looks pretty good, but Rooney has failed to perform in the 10 position for 3 matches now. Not to mention that the partnership of Gerrard-Henderson isn't working either. Many liverpool fans have said that they require another midfielder with them but if Rooney starts, then there can't be anyone there.

That's a problem.

Is there a solution? Yes. Will Hodgson go for that solution? Highly doubt it.

Like I said in the other thread, no one is expecting us to do well in this WC. So why not we play the youngsters and just see how it goes? The youngsters are clearly more sharper than the more experienced players. And they know how the modern football is played.

---------------------Hart----------------------
Smalling--------Jagielka----Cahill----------Baines/Shaw
---------------Wilshere----Henderson------------
Lallana-----------------Barkley--------------Sterling
--------------------Sturridge----------------------

That's an extreme approach. Could very well get thrashed by the teams. But F it. We are getting out either way. Rather this way than being suffered and outwitted by the other teams.

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Post by Busby Babe Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:27 am

The thing is the line-up is only part of the problem and even if Hodgson gets it right, individual quality can only take you so far. When you play Italy and co. will Hodgson set us up correct tactically? I don't think so, but Italy do start tournaments slow so there is small hope.

I like the youngsters idea, at least we will come out with some good football (even if it is in patches).
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Post by Onyx Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:47 am

Why don't England just play 4-4-2?

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Post by RealGunner Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:54 am

His 4-2-3-1 is basically a 4-4-2
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Post by Onyx Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:56 am

Rooney and Sturridge up front could work.

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Post by Onyx Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:57 am

But England need to focus on counter-attacking more. Sit back, 2 banks of 4 and counter.

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Post by RealGunner Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:57 am

I'll email them your CV
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Post by Onyx Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:06 am

I'll email them directly. hmm

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Post by RED Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:00 am

Horrid performance :facepalm:

Nothing more to say..
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Post by Catracho Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:48 am

If you can't beat a 10 man Honduras, then its time to rethink life.
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Post by Art Morte Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:35 am

Rooney/Sturridge is the problem. If you're not going to play with two strikers, don't field both of them. Sturridge is better, so bench Rooney. England have much more skillful players to play the positions Rooney's been playing lately.
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Post by Jay29 Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:34 am

Essentially, the manager is trying work out how to somehow get the nation's so-called best player, Rooney, and it's most in form striker, Sturridge, together, without reverting to a 4-4-2, and his solution has been this 4-2-3-1 with Rooney as the 10. Unfortunately, in every game that's been used, it's looked ineffective.

In just about every game they've been paired together, in whatever shape, Rooney and Sturridge haven't looked capable of playing together. I think it's pretty clear that one needs to left out of the team in favour of an extra midfielder, and between the two of them Sturridge is the one who looks like he'll make a difference - missed two or three good opportunities last night but at least got in those positions in the first place - whereas Rooney looks completely off the pace.

It's not a coincidence that moving him from that central position has made England look a more fluid, cohesive team. But you just know the manager will try and get him in the team in some capacity, just because it's Rooney.

What I'd really like to see after the World Cup, even though it'll never happen, is for the management and the FA to sit down and identify a core group of players that they're going to build around and then develop a style that'll maximize the talents of that group. In my mind, that group has to be: Henderson, Wilshere, Barkley, Sterling, Chamberlain and Sturridge. These are the most talented players we have right now.

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Post by Zealous Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:05 pm

England are so busy avoiding 4-4-2 that they are not realizing that 4-4-2 is starting to become an effective formation in modern football for counter attacking teams.

Both Madrid and Atleti have used 4-4-2 hybrids to great success this past season so why are England avoiding it? Especially when they have the players that can fit in such a system?

I agree with Jay entirely regarding England's future core. I personally think this new English generation is very promising.
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Post by RED Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:52 pm

Art Morte wrote:Rooney/Sturridge is the problem. If you're not going to play with two strikers, don't field both of them. Sturridge is better, so bench Rooney. England have much more skillful players to play the positions Rooney's been playing lately.


You actually think Hodgson would dare to drop that overrated sack of spud?

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Post by Onyx Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Exactly, clubs have used 4-4-2 successfully this season. Just because 4-4-2 is outdated, generic etc etc, doesn't mean it can't work.

Thing with England is they aren't good at possession. They aren't going to outplay Italy, Spain or Brazil. England are basically underdogs so they should play like underdogs. Focus on defending, 2 banks of 4, minimising space, set-pieces etc. Then look to counter with pace.

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Post by BeautifulGame Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:04 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/08/adam-lallana-danny-welbeck-england-world-cup

Seems like Welback Sturridge Lallana the front 3 with Rooney behind as no.10

Atleast hope if Welback is starting against Italy then he is given the job of marking Pirlo than Rooney like last time.
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Post by Zealous Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:24 pm

lol marking Pirlo, good luck with that.
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Post by BeautifulGame Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:36 pm

Well Pirlo is 2 years older and Welback did a pretty decent job on marking Alonso in last year CL match
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Post by Art Morte Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:38 pm

Marking Pirlo isn't problematic in itself; it may be difficult or easy depending on what's the overall tactic. If you prioritize man-marking Pirlo, sure it can be done. But that would probably mean giving in in some other area.
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