Brazilian Football is Behind - A Perfect Analysis written by a professional footballer

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Post by rsinatra Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:57 am

Mano Menezes, the current Seleção coach, said that Neymar should go to Europe. Obviously, Mano is more worried about saving his ass and finding short term solutions for the NT to work than about Brazilian football.

Here is a text written by Paulo André, who currently plays for Corinthians as a center-back. It's not often that I stumble upon such a great analysis, especially one written by a football player himself. Smart guy. Kudos.


Brazilian Football is Behind

By PAULO ANDRÉ*

If we assume that Football is divided into three basic principles, and from them all variations are possible, I would say that:

technically, we have always been superior to any other nation;

physically, at some point, we were inferior;

and tactically we've always suffered with the lack of discipline on the application of strategy because we were such better footballers that we always found a way to beat our rivals.

In this manner, we initially decided to make up for the physical discrepancy, and so we developed all the science offered by the best studies and articles ever produced to build the ideal athlete.

The plan was to match the Europeans, and for that, we had to break down countless cultural barriers by introducing muscular and specific physical exercises to footballers.

For years, the specialists on the matter would throw up when they heard directors, coaches and commentators saying that the muscular exercises would make the player slow/motionless.

Anyhow, and with some delay, we evolved a lot on the quality of physical preparations and allowed science to enter Brazilian football.

So far, so good.

We were able to match the physical strength and we kept the technical supremacy. We were practically unbeatable.

But at some point of football history and Brazilian economy, the Clubs found themselves in horrible financial conditions, and they couldn't create any other type of income other than the selling of players to the European market.

We took too long to structure ourselves and explore marketing and ours fans' unconditional love for the game, so as to generate incomes that, together with TV rights, would make the Clubs self-sufficient.

Therefore, the only way of surviving found by the unprepared, amateurish directors of that time was to sell athletes to Europe to pay the debts and hire old celebrities [aka former good players] to win the support of the people.

Since then, we've been producing players to the Europeans, trying to select them and prepare them according to a profile that facilitates such negotiations.

Worse than that, our mistake was to believe that the ideal athlete was the one that existed in Europe.

Good height, not a lot of swing (for football was not just for fun anymore), disciplined, good aerial game, and, most importantly, with a first name and a surname.

We even went as far as taking away our youth academy boys' nicknames so that they looked more marketable to the eyes and to the money-box of the Old Continent.

At the end of 20th Century, we were still a Colony, exploited by the Europeans who bought it cheap and profited with the performances and the future transfers of the those imported "products".

And despite all that, we Brazilians were still happy and believed that this "easiness" in finding raw material and selling it overseas was the answer to our problems.

We didn't worry about the Exodus of players because the renovation and the talent were so natural of our people that at each year more and more quality players would come up.

If we wanted to, we could have three or four national teams capable of winning the same World Cup.

At that time (and during this process), we still maintained our technical supremacy and therefore we took years to realize that the Game had evolved as well.

Football started to be studied and analysed as much as the human organism or the World Economy.

Of course, something that generates so many billions of dollars and moves many more billions from fans all around the planet couldn't be left to luck or to the natural talent of its practitioners.

That way, while we still dedicated ourselves to the physical exercises - with runs of 1000m, 300m, etc... - the Europeans did everything on the pitch, with the ball.

More intense and disputed exercises, mini-games that specifically explored a principle of attack or defense, everything inserted into the game.

Each exercise had an objective, and the synchronicity of the pressing movements against the opponent, such as the offside trap (shortening the field), the quick exchange of passes and the least possible amount of touches became requirements in modern football.

The 4-men defensive line and the attempt at stealing the ball on the opponent's half were already practiced much before I arrived in Europe in 2006.

We are in 2012, and in Brazil there are people who still talk about winger, three center-backs and defensive midfielder [volante de contenção].

The lack of vision, protectionism, and stimulation to the maintenance of talents and the development of the Brazilian Way of playing football reveals, two decades later, a grave problem.

We forgot to invest in planning, structuring, and, most importantly, on the capacitation of professionals to continue the production and consolidation of our hegemony in the world of football.

We worried about selling our Seleção and forgot to reinvest the profit on the future generations.

We used the "products" produced and formed by our clubs, but forgot to reward the service with the creation of stronger and more profitable leagues, quality infrastructure (stadiums, pitches, etc) and the capacitation of people in all areas of the Brazilian sport (directors, managers, coaches, scouts, etc).

We are behind.

We almost don't have capacitating courses that are worth our time.

The circle of Brazilian football is restrict, closed and opposite to new ideas.

We almost don't have experts of the game, of the tactical variations or the specific exercises.

Our youth academies don't teach for the modern football, but rather for the football of another time, long gone.

We insist on outdated things simply because the majority of our ex-players (current coaches) are not prepared to form new athletes.

There lacks knowledge and afterwards the application of tools such as the theory of the game, psychology and pedagogy to the sport so that we can get out of the stagnation in which we find ourselves in.

We need to abdicate the formulas that one day worked and became traditional, so we can make big changes on the State Championships [estaduais] , the lower divisions and the "small" teams, just as one day our League went from a knock-out system to the round-robin type of tournament., giving more financial stability to both clubs and athletes.

Maybe it's time to break free from other paradigms.

To admit that this model is outdated and that we need to change it is the first step.

The problem is that only few people are worried about this.

Actually, there are only very few who do see the delay, and most only complain that the Seleção aren't doing well.

Our values and experts of the game can't get inside because they were never professional footballers, so they don't have the market's trust.

The youth academy of most of the Brazilian clubs is utterly neglected.

The positions inside the clubs, federations and confederations are still political and not technical. This has to change!

Brazil finds itself on a crossroad.

Actually, we've been standing on it for some years, obseving, with fixed eyes, the road that brought us here.

It is full of flowers, beauties and conquests.

When we look back at our path, we fall in love with the building of our history and we feel the certainty and the pride of knowing that the best teams and the greatest players that the planet has ever seen were Brazilians.

We also see that we won, proudly and deservedly, the nickname País do Futebol ("the Land of Football"), the biggest exporter of footpower ["manpower"] that the world has ever known.

We used to dominate the Football World and used to have, for many years, stars in all the great national leagues in the Old Continent.

Everyone was afraid of the yellow shirt, and the Brazilians, enamored, would stop everything to see the canarinho play.

Because of all that, we spent years enjoying the beauty of our football and the advantage we had over the rest.

We believed that anything was possible to the country that has the football talent in its people's DNA.

Today, looking around, closer to the crossroads, still on the path we built, we see the dreams, the insanity and the extravagances that wasted time and money and didn't become anything.

A sleepy period in which the lack of capacity was justified in numerous ways, especially because of the splendorous past that we built.

However, recently, astonished and still standing on the road, we were awoken by the noisy engines of the Spanish, the Dutch, and the German who passed us without asking permission.

They accelerated at such a speed that we still haven't figured out which new parts of the gear make them go so fast.

And here we are, staring at the crossroad looking for tips about where to go and which path is the best choice.
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Post by Be/\/ceCALI Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:52 am

Very in-depth and well written article. Thanks for sharing.

When I was a little kid back in Hungary, probably about 15+ years ago, my grandpa(rip) really got me into football and I always asked him who the best player in the world was, and he told me Ronaldo. He showed me videos he had recorded of him, and we watched many Inter games together. Then he told me that I missed out because I didn't get to see the older generation of Brazil players like Pele (whom my grandpa said was his 2nd greatest after Puskas Razz), Garrincha, Falcao, Socrates etc and he just kept naming players while I sat there like a clueless kid. Ronaldo was the first footballer I really loved to watch. I was also a huge admirer of Rivaldo as well and he had probably the best left foot shot I've seen.

The Brazil team I grew up watching with Rivaldo, Luiz Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, R.Carlos, Cafu, Kaka was outstanding. The way they played, it was just like they were at a party, making it look so easy and making opponents look clueless in the process. It looked like they were having so much fun while the opponents looked miserable.

I don't know too much about the previous generations of Brazilian players, except from what i've heard and youtube so I can't comment on that.

To me it seems though that even though the current Brazil NT players are very talented, the team isn't as well balanced and strong as it was back then. Not just because these players aren't as good or complete as R9 and co, but also because of the tactics. With Dunga, I didn't see the free flowing beautiful play that I was used to seeing with Scolari's team.

The fact that the other European powerhouses have been improving hasn't really helped, either. The Dutch and German NTs are already very strong but they're getting better and producing great young talents, while Spain has their golden generation at the moment.

In my opinion, Brazil have the players. Maybe not all of the NT players are world-cup winning material YET, but they're talented enough for sure. They need to find the right coach and formation to suit them and to bring their famous samba-style flair back. I'm no Brazil expert, but I do admire their football.
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Post by rsinatra Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:32 pm

I think that that 2002 team was good, but still it was already being criticized for not being Brazilian enough. Up until the WC, we were doing kinda poorly if I remember it correctly.

Hell, the 1994 NT was hated by many, because it was already too European for our tastes. But, at least, we had the individuals that made the difference. The same in 98, '02.. even in 2006 we had a strong team, but things were already messy then. The Brazilian style died after '86, when we realized that flair wasnt enough. But I wish we had been able to balance things more evenly, if we had had better people to prepare our NTs..

Back 02, 98, 94, even though we already had an exodus of players to Europe, things hadn't reached the point they have now.. it takes time, so for some time we could still enjoy our stars .. Razz

But right now, what number 9 do we have?? Pato? Damião? It shows how we've decreased in quality ... even our midfield has problems.. the only place Brazil are still strong is the defense, and that's the biggest irony of it all!

But, of course, we do have some great players. But they all play for European clubs, European football. None of them, with a few exceptions, even knows how to play the football we are famous for..

Anyway, I have a Hungarian friend who thinks Puskas is the best of all time too Smile!
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Post by The Franchise Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:06 pm

I see that many great players of Brazil have and did ply their in Europe, but why is this SUCH a bad thing?

It impacts them and they have a more European style than the teams of the 80's and further back?

The game was different then and what worked then, may not/does not work now.

The 2002 team played probably the best football at the time, just because it wasnt exactly like previous years doesnt really matter does it? If its still one of the best?

Right now, thats not the case. However, the talent of Zico, Garrincha, Pele, Rivaldo, Ronaldo and so on and so on are just not there right now.

They still have some fantastic players, but none quite to this level...where they are amoung the top 3-5 in the world. There isnt much you can do about that, its not like talent isnt being produced, its just they just arent super natural talents just yet.

We would love to see the level of yesturyear, but its just not possible right now. That doesnt mean, they cant improve and do better, but it takes time and the right decisions.

Brazilian players are improvisors, they are the best at it. When they have a stable midfield behind it and just a reasonable defence, they do well.

I admit, Dunga's team were not very exciting to watch compared to other years. However, they got the hardest part right...the solidarity. I strongly feel, Brazil were unlucky and should of beat Holland and I still felt they would of had an edge of Spain.

Mano, I am not yet feeling. His selections baffle me at times and I dont really see what he trying to do out there. Dunga for all his flaws, at least had a plan and choose players based on that plan and excluded players (Ronaldinho) who didnt fit into it.

I am kind of all over the place in this post, so forgive me. But just some random thoughts.




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Post by stunt Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:06 am

Brazil is currently being burdened by being tactically underdeveloped. However, I believe they will turn that around and their NT will start winning again.

But can the Brazillian league ever gain it's former glory?

The moment football became a business things changed. To have a big league you need two things, money and prestige. The Brazillian league has a good bit of that, but the European leagues win on both fronts.

Brazil will always produce great footballers, and they might be having a not-so-good crop of players right now, but they will turn that around. But keeping them at home is no longer possible, IMO.

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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:08 am

The Franchise wrote:I see that many great players of Brazil have and did ply their in Europe, but why is this SUCH a bad thing?

It impacts them and they have a more European style than the teams of the 80's and further back?

The game was different then and what worked then, may not/does not work now.

The 2002 team played probably the best football at the time, just because it wasnt exactly like previous years doesnt really matter does it? If its still one of the best?

Right now, thats not the case. However, the talent of Zico, Garrincha, Pele, Rivaldo, Ronaldo and so on and so on are just not there right now.

They still have some fantastic players, but none quite to this level...where they are amoung the top 3-5 in the world. There isnt much you can do about that, its not like talent isnt being produced, its just they just arent super natural talents just yet.

We would love to see the level of yesturyear, but its just not possible right now. That doesnt mean, they cant improve and do better, but it takes time and the right decisions.

Brazilian players are improvisors, they are the best at it. When they have a stable midfield behind it and just a reasonable defence, they do well.

I admit, Dunga's team were not very exciting to watch compared to other years. However, they got the hardest part right...the solidarity. I strongly feel, Brazil were unlucky and should of beat Holland and I still felt they would of had an edge of Spain.

Mano, I am not yet feeling. His selections baffle me at times and I dont really see what he trying to do out there. Dunga for all his flaws, at least had a plan and choose players based on that plan and excluded players (Ronaldinho) who didnt fit into it.

I am kind of all over the place in this post, so forgive me. But just some random thoughts.





Okay,

1 - Unfortunately, our NT won't probably ever play as they did back in the 80's and such. There was time back then, and there isn't now. Our 1982 Seleção trained for 3 months isolated in some place before going to Spain. And most of them already played in Brazil and knew each other quite well. I have a friend who believes that the National Teams Era is over, and I although I refuse to agree with him, I think he has a point. Spain does well because half of the players are together at Barca or at Real Madrid, and then a few others.

2 - No one doubts that there was quality back in 2002. In fact, what he wrote in the article refers to the 90's and and 2000's, when things were already going wrong, but we still had the good players to make up for it. But since 1990 our NT is criticized for playing European football. That's how it is. We dazzled the world with 3 WC titles and a very unique, original football, and now just play like everyone else. That's what is criticized. It is how it is because our FA (CBF) didn't invest in the clubs, in the players, in Brazil, to allow us to evolve with football. The fact that, every time a successful team comes up in Brazil, half of the team is bought after 3 months and the players go to completely different clubs in completely different parts of the world doens't help. But for the record, I myself enjoyed watching the selecao back in 94, 98, and 2002, but mostly because the individuals were good.

3 - Dunga's team was solid, and much better than Mano's. I hated its style, but he had a philosophy and it worked. I agree with you, we should have beaten the Dutch, but we didn't, because he was too stubborn to bring anyone new into the squad, and look at what happened: we are down to 10 men, Holland scores 2-1, and who do we have that can come on and make a true impact?? Kleberson? FFS. Anyway, this is off topic hehe.

4 - Now here it gets good: Mano Menezes. Who is he? Nobody. He won a Copa do Brasil with Corinthians... that's all. He was second choice, if not third. He's far from being world class. The best coach in Brazil, who said no to the NT, is Muricy Ramalho, who is just like Dunga, good at dead ball situations, defensive work, etc. Corinthians, the current champions, play the most boring, defensive, unattacking football ever, and that's how they won the League. We don't have one single coach who is world class atm, or one coach who seems to know how to make a team play true beautiful football. Why? Because Brazilian clubs don't invest enough money and time, they don't have the patience. You lose 3 games, you're fired. There's no structure. So, the coaches that do succeed, do it by playing the most UnBrazilian football possible.

And as you said, sure we have some talents, I agree, but they are not as good as the talents we had 10 years ago, and that's also due to structuring, investing, and so on. Most of our youth academies are a mess.
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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:12 am

stunt wrote:Brazil is currently being burdened by being tactically underdeveloped. However, I believe they will turn that around and their NT will start winning again.

But can the Brazillian league ever gain it's former glory?

The moment football became a business things changed. To have a big league you need two things, money and prestige. The Brazillian league has a good bit of that, but the European leagues win on both fronts.

Brazil will always produce great footballers, and they might be having a not-so-good crop of players right now, but they will turn that around. But keeping them at home is no longer possible, IMO.

That's the thing, it will be very hard for us to ever regain our former glory, perhaps impossible. Not every club will be able to make the Neymar kind of deal that Santos is making. And after their INCREDIBLY and IMPRESSIVE hard work to keep Neymar, along comes Mano Menezes saying that he should leave, just because he wants to save his own ass. It's amazing how stupid he is.

I say let's bring a gringo as a coach. Let's give Cruyff a job and let him supervise Brazil from our youngest teams. Then bring another gringo, a world class one, to be our coach. Someone who knows what he's doing. Then other Brazilians might learn, and in the future we might emply them again lol.
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Post by Ganso Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:17 am

Why bring in a gringo when we have great coaches like joel,felipao and luxembrgo available Very Happy

seriously though,i would love to see Muricy as as our coach after the olympics
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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:58 am

Ganso wrote:Why bring in a gringo when we have great coaches like joel,felipao and luxembrgo available Very Happy

seriously though,i would love to see Muricy as as our coach after the olympics

lol, i do believe that felipao , who is not what he once was, would do far better than mano!! notice that that doesnt mean that i believe he would make us play beautiful football.

same thing for muricy. im sure he would do a better job, but then we'd go back to being great at dead ball situations, defensive play, leave-the-rest-to-neymar etc... not the beautiful flowing football we once had.

let's bring guardiola when he decides to quit barça ffs Very Happy
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Post by The Franchise Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:15 am

rsinatra

I dont dissagree with point 1, and im probbably not far away from the same place your friend is at. Club football is at a much higher level now, they train together much more often and the quality of teams are much higher generally speaking.



Point 2 makes sense, however, I think its time to stop looking at the past and saying how those teams had their own unique style and now you dont. Other than Spain, does anyone has a unique style? I dont really think they do. I 100% am with you when its said how the CBF didn't invest in the clubs, in the players, in Brazil, to allow the football to flourish and evolve. And no question, so many Brazilian talents (not even players) are gone so quick and that young leaving means they will devolp a style more like everyone else.

I agree about Dunga's flaw, he took his style too serious in fact. He went for team over individuals, but you must strike a balance and I think, like the example of habing to bring Kleberson on, showed that.

Point 4 sounds like an abosulate nail on problem, one that plagues other nations also. But my question is, where is the legacy of guys like Tele Santana, even Mario Zegallo and guys like this? They had a purchant for offensive football, especially Santana...so where are his asisstants? Where as those who learnt under him? They should be around now continuing and elvolving his work.

Just like Cryuff did from Michels, just like Guardiola did from him..and look at the others who branch off from this, Van Gaal, Rijkaard, De Boer..all of whom have devolped into fine coaches because they kept something going.



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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:31 am

The Franchise wrote:rsinatra

I dont dissagree with point 1, and im probbably not far away from the same place your friend is at. Club football is at a much higher level now, they train together much more often and the quality of teams are much higher generally speaking.



Point 2 makes sense, however, I think its time to stop looking at the past and saying how those teams had their own unique style and now you dont. Other than Spain, does anyone has a unique style? I dont really think they do. I 100% am with you when its said how the CBF didn't invest in the clubs, in the players, in Brazil, to allow the football to flourish and evolve. And no question, so many Brazilian talents (not even players) are gone so quick and that young leaving means they will devolp a style more like everyone else.

I agree about Dunga's flaw, he took his style too serious in fact. He went for team over individuals, but you must strike a balance and I think, like the example of habing to bring Kleberson on, showed that.

Point 4 sounds like an abosulate nail on problem, one that plagues other nations also. But my question is, where is the legacy of guys like Tele Santana, even Mario Zegallo and guys like this? They had a purchant for offensive football, especially Santana...so where are his asisstants? Where as those who learnt under him? They should be around now continuing and elvolving his work.

Just like Cryuff did from Michels, just like Guardiola did from him..and look at the others who branch off from this, Van Gaal, Rijkaard, De Boer..all of whom have devolped into fine coaches because they kept something going.




The question that Brazilians ask is this one: if Spain can do it, why can't we, 5-time World Champions? ... funny thing is that Guardiola said that what Barcelona do now is something Brazil always have done, according to his parents and grandparents.. and now we just cant do it.

Now, the saddest part: One of Telê protegés is Muricy Ramalho, Santos' coach. Most successful coach of the last 7 years in Brazil, and a great guy. But how has he been successful? Organizing his team in a way that Telê would despise. Sad Because it's the way to survive in Brazil. That's how he won 3 leagues with São Paulo, that's how Santos the Libertadores last year... Telê Santana was THE man, a perfect, just perfect coach. Even better than Zagallo. Zagallo was lucky that in 1970 we had who we had on the pitch hehe, but of course, I won't try to take any credit away from him!

Other than Muricy Ramalho, I dont know who else out there was part of the Santana "family".


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Post by The Franchise Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:39 am

Muricy Ramalho learnt from Tele.....wow...I had no idea.

And now he is playing insuch a different fashion....thats quite shocking. Guys who learn from coaches, sucessfull ones, generally follow their methods to a flaw...they use them when they arent even relevant anymore...Ramalho has gone the other way it seems. Surprising to say the least.

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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:53 am

The Franchise wrote: Muricy Ramalho learnt from Tele.....wow...I had no idea.

And now he is playing insuch a different fashion....thats quite shocking. Guys who learn from coaches, sucessfull ones, generally follow their methods to a flaw...they use them when they arent even relevant anymore...Ramalho has gone the other way it seems. Surprising to say the least.


If he didn't organize the teams the way he does, he would've never succeeded, I believe. Thats what's wrong with Brazilian football, you see? He said it himself, after the match against Barcelona: "if we try these things here, we won't survive", because the directors have no patience. every year, at the brasileirao, so many coaches are fired and hired and fired and rehired, it's pathetic... they think that the problems can be quickly solved. and that's also why he said that guardiola should come to brazil to see how tough it is hehe.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:21 am

Yes, I remember him saying that. Its true.

Why the change though? Why the widespread lac of patience?

Then again, thats a question for European football too, though it seems its not quite as drastic.

Are there any clubs who exercise pateince?

Another question. Luxembergo seems to have had 56 millions jobs...is that because of him or the clubs?



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Post by Le Samourai Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:07 am

I wonder......

............................Keeper................................
Alves..........Luiz................Silva..............Marcelo.
................Lucas..........Ganso..................
....Hulk.......................................Lucas Moura.
..................................Neymar.................
.................Damiao.......................................

hmm

Hulk is the problem in my formation...harsh to say but I wouldn't hazzard to insert a mildly in form Ronaldhinio or Kaka in there.On paper at the very least it's a top 3 international team in the world.....



On Topic: 1982 wasn't too shabby , albeit Tele wasn't really at fault for the enigma that is Claudio Gentile
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Post by Ganso Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:08 am

thats so man yanited-ish hmm...

Ganso as deep lying playmaker :bow:
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Post by Le Samourai Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:16 am

Yep that's why I said Hulk is the problem....hence why I'd rather insert Kaka or Dhinio.

It's based on this as is basically every formation you will ever see me posit for a talented team.

Brazilian Football is Behind - A Perfect Analysis written by a professional footballer Euro2008442diagram

Silva and Iniesta were much much more direct players at the time.........Honestly...swap out Hulk and Lucas for prime Kaka and Dhinio......


:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Better at 2 (arguably for most 3) defensive positions.
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Post by Ganso Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:21 am

Dinho?Kaka?eww....Hernanes all the way
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Post by rsinatra Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:21 am

talking about kaká and dinho.... you're on the wrong thread Smile

this is not about how the current brazil should be formed..

brazil's problem in 82 was that we should played more defensively and been satisfied with a draw. but that team was more than that, it was about principles.. and so we got beaten by our own mistakes + italy good at what they do
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:13 am

You know there are some that think football died after brazil 1970. That since then ingenuity and imagination have left football and all that is left is "a mere punching bag and rigid patterns of slavery", a part from a few players here and there such as ronaldinho of course
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Post by Funkentelechy Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:33 am

Gotta disagree on the part about Europe.

Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Romário, Kaká and almost every world class brazilian of the last couple of decades has played in Europe. Most of them went at a young age and still kept their styles. In fact, Europe made them better.

Obviously clubs will have the European markets in mind when building their youth systems, but the problem isn't having players with "european style", the problem is that they aren't good enough regardless of their style. Also, the way it talks about European style is full of prejudice, like it were something bad or boring lol. I'd take the "boring, flairless" European style of, say, Germany in a heartbeat.

Saying that all we care for are "Good height, not a lot of swing (for football was not just for fun anymore), disciplined, good aerial game" is a huge overstatement. Half of our NT is neither above 5'11 feet tall or extremely athletic e.g. Dani Alves, Marcelo, Rafael, Fabio, Lucas Moura, Lucas Leiva, Fernandinho, Neymar, Alex Sandro, Pato, Robinho.

All in all, thinking about the markeability of their youth is only natural and inevitable to the lesser leagues and clubs be it Brazilian, Argentine, French or Portuguese. Clearly having a strong league would be the ideal, but Europe can't be blamed for our problems: Argetine, Uruguay, Chile, for instance, are even more uncapable of keeping their talents and guess what, they are still producing some of it.
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Post by free_cat Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:39 am

Can I have the original source to send it to a brasilian friend?
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Post by rsinatra Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:33 pm

Funkentelechy wrote:Gotta disagree on the part about Europe.

Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Romário, Kaká and almost every world class brazilian of the last couple of decades has played in Europe. Most of them went at a young age and still kept their styles. In fact, Europe made them better.

Obviously clubs will have the European markets in mind when building their youth systems, but the problem isn't having players with "european style", the problem is that they aren't good enough regardless of their style. Also, the way it talks about European style is full of prejudice, like it were something bad or boring lol. I'd take the "boring, flairless" European style of, say, Germany in a heartbeat.

Saying that all we care for are "Good height, not a lot of swing (for football was not just for fun anymore), disciplined, good aerial game" is a huge overstatement. Half of our NT is neither above 5'11 feet tall or extremely athletic e.g. Dani Alves, Marcelo, Rafael, Fabio, Lucas Moura, Lucas Leiva, Fernandinho, Neymar, Alex Sandro, Pato, Robinho.

All in all, thinking about the markeability of their youth is only natural and inevitable to the lesser leagues and clubs be it Brazilian, Argentine, French or Portuguese. Clearly having a strong league would be the ideal, but Europe can't be blamed for our problems: Argetine, Uruguay, Chile, for instance, are even more uncapable of keeping their talents and guess what, they are still producing some of it.

Regarding your 1st paragraph: Romário was as good a goal scorer as he was before and after Barcelona. What he gained in Europe was recognition, that's all. It's another big mistake some Brazilians make: they think that for a player to be great, he has to be recognized by foreigners.
Ronaldinho and Kaka probably learnt more yes, but that's not because it is how it is, it's because of the problem discussed in this article, whose point you shouldn't forget: he's not criticizing Europe for evolving, and buying our players, he's criticizing Brazil for falling behind, for selling them. If going to Europe nowadays will make them better, it's because we couldn't keep up with the development of the game. Hell, did Socrates become better in Europe? Zico? No, it's only after modern football started to become what it is and we didn't invest in it that we fell behind.

Sure, maybe the problem is that they aren't good enough right now, but I and many others still dislike the fact that we play European football. It's not because it's bad, but it's because it isn't our style, that's all. Even back in 2002, 1994.... I remember Cruyff complaining that we won the 2002 WC by playing anti-football.

About your 3rd paragraph: you are using a momentary example to argue against it. It won't stick. Think about Dunga's NT, and how one of our best quality was crossing and heading the ball into goal, something Brazil never was known for. Look at Dunga's players and think how the hell do they compare to 1982, 1970..?
Either way, it's not just about the NT and its current situation, it's about Brazilian football in general. Like I said, our best coaches and teams succeed by playing the type of football that goes completely against the "Brazilian style".

Finally, your last paragraph is a representation of what this thread means lol: "All in all, thinking about the markeability of their youth is only natural and inevitable to the lesser leagues and clubs." You talk as if the Brazilian league had always been a lesser league and the Brazilian clubs were all small and without history, and that it was okay that Europe exploited these South American countries as colonies. I don't blame you really, because that's how it is nowadays. But before this huge exodus of players started, our teams were pretty awesome, and our legendary NTs were formed 95% of the time by local players. Imagine all the great, good, regular, okay players that go to Europe stayed in Brazil. All the small clubs would hold on to their best players and put up good fights against the big ones. It's not always been like it is now. It's not "natural", it's just how it is now, because of lack of vision, protectionism, etc. Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile are even more uncapable of it because their economy is doing as well as ours. I'm sure they would love to keep their players at home. São Paulo, Santos, Flamengo, , etc, are clubs with grand history, and still we've been selling our players for nothing in the past couple of decades. At least now we're getting smarter, and Santos' president LAOR is saying: "we are not a colony anymore, our fans want titles, not money."

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:You know there are some that think football died after brazil 1970. That since then ingenuity and imagination have left football and all that is left is "a mere punching bag and rigid patterns of slavery", a part from a few players here and there such as ronaldinho of course

I think you mean 1982? because that's when we had the best NT ever, perhaps even better than the one in 1970, playing with true class, and we lost to Italy. That's the day that the discipline, tactics, etc, won over talent and art!



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Post by rsinatra Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:34 pm

free_cat wrote:Can I have the original source to send it to a brasilian friend?

http://www.pauloandreoficial.com.br/site2/paginas/view_post_blog.php?post=80
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Post by rsinatra Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:38 pm

The Franchise wrote:Yes, I remember him saying that. Its true.

Why the change though? Why the widespread lac of patience?

Then again, thats a question for European football too, though it seems its not quite as drastic.

Are there any clubs who exercise pateince?

Another question. Luxembergo seems to have had 56 millions jobs...is that because of him or the clubs?




Well, clubs with money can afford to have the patience. Look at Barcelona and their youth academy, the way they slowly introduce the youngsters into the senior squad, etc. Or look at Arsenal, despite the lack of success, they stick to the same coach, and the same philosophy, no matter what. Wenger would've been fired in Brazil at most 1 year after his last title. lol

Luxemburgo is still getting work because of his past, when he was great with Palmeiras in the 90's, amongst other things. He has a name, that's all. He hasn't been good for a decade now. But Brazilian clubs are afraid to invest in newcomers, and impatient, so they for a famous one. The only thing that Luxemburgo manages to win these days are some meaningless State Championship trophies.
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