The case of Aaron Ramsey

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Post by Ali Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:52 am

I did neg, but how did you know? Razz Did I post and say so ?

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Post by Ali Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:21 pm

curious case
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Post by Iceman Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:39 pm

Firstly, we need to agree here that this is not the same tactical set-up that we had when Cesc was here. A lot of fans keep on saying "The Cesc role" and "We haven't changed tactics since Fabregas left" which is all just a whole load of nonsense. The tactics have changed a lot, and I'm not going to write a whole post explaining what you cannot simply observe, but the main thing with regards to Ramsey is that when he shined for us, he played as a B2B midfielder, and now Arsenal do NOT play with a B2B midfielder (This change in formation/tactics should be obvious by now).

So, what is the role or the attributes needed for a B2B midfielder? Well, he needs to have a lot of stamina, some good pace, great ball control, great dribbling skills, decent passing, the ability to shoot well, defend well and create the odd chance when possible.

I believe it is fair to say that a Box-to-box midfielder needs to have a little bit of everything without particularly excelling at anything bar stamina and dribbling.

So what are Ramsey's attributes? Sh!tload of stamina, fantastic ball control and dribbling skills, a good shot, endless pressing and defensive work, good passing, decent pace and the ability to create the odd chance.

As everyone can see, Ramsey was perfect for the role he played for us which is why he was just so damn good at it. What we're doing with Ramsey now is like trying to play Diaby as a DM or as an AM. While Ramsey is perfect for a b2b midfielder, he does not have THAT much creativity for us to rely on him solely for it.

The thing is, we aren't really relying on him alone and to say that nobody has tried to share the burden is unfair. Song has 15 through-balls in the EPL this season which is just as much as, or more than, Xavi, Silva, Fabregas etc. , but Ramsey is being given the role of the creator, and he has had some really good performances there, but ever since Gary Speed's death and ever since AW over-played him, he started to have a bad run of games. This is all due to a combination of things, including the two I just mentioned as well as the pressure and responsibility that he is feeling.

As long as we play a 4-2-1-3, Ramsey won't really fit in unless he plays as part of the "2" not the "1" or unless he clears his mind and starts performing like we know he can. He also isn't helped by the fact that very few people in the team are able to understand him or read his flicks. RVP doesn't drop deep nearly as often too, which makes it harder to dictate the tempo and create on the pitch.

I still believe in him, and he has a long long long way to go, and Aaron Ramsey will be something huge in football soon.
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Post by waitressinthesky Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:12 pm

I think Ramsey's still very valuable -- today was a good example. I say continue to use him regularly as a sub, and increase his playing time as his confidence/utility continues to improve.

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Post by Highburied Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:37 am

Iceman wrote:Firstly, we need to agree here that this is not the same tactical set-up that we had when Cesc was here. A lot of fans keep on saying "The Cesc role" and "We haven't changed tactics since Fabregas left" which is all just a whole load of nonsense. The tactics have changed a lot, and I'm not going to write a whole post explaining what you cannot simply observe,

Elaborate smart ass! What has changed in your super opinion?
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Post by Jay29 Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:05 am

There have been some changes to the tactics but by and large it's still the same set-up from when Cesc was still here. What we're seeing now is the effect of different personnel on the style of play, not necessarily a change in tactics.

4-2-1-3 is still the formation. Song and Arteta, previously Wilshere, still form a pivot in midfield while Ramsey, formerly Cesc, clearly plays an advanced role in midfield.

The difference between the two eras, if you will, is that Arsenal now play the ball forward and to the flanks quicker than they did previously, due to how high up the wingers tend to play. Previously, Arsenal would have Rosicky, Nasri or Arshavin operating on the left hand side, who all had the natural tendency to drop deep and cut inside. Now, though, we have a genuine wideman/forward in Gervinho.

Another difference is that Cesc-era Arsenal would habitually play in and around an opponent's penalty area, probing away for openings. Post Cesc-era Arsenal aren't as adept as keeping hold of the ball so try to play quickly down the flanks and cut the ball back to the striker.

As far as offence goes though that's pretty much the only tactical change. We call it the "Cesc role" but really all it was was an advanced midfield role - it was Cesc's great off the ball movement that made it so successful. His ability to link-up and go beyond the forwards was one of things that made such a great player.

We still use the same role, it's just that the players we use there, be it Ramsey or Rosicky, don't link-up with the forwards as well as Cesc did, nor do they get into dangerous positions as often.

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Post by Iceman Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:23 am

But don't the personnel define what the roles of their positions are?
We clearly do not play with a box-to-box midfielder now. Arteta is a very good AM, and if Wenger wanted him to play there, he would have played Ramsey in his natural position and resume with the formation that we had from the start of last season, but he decided to change.
If Wenger wanted the formation to stay the same, he wouldn't have reconfigured it like he did. WE choose to call it the Cesc role, but it isn't the Cesc role anymore.

We have Song who is now playing more through-balls than David Silva, which is a change in tactics as our DM is also responsible for creating. We have no b2b midfielder (Instead we have another player to anchor with Song so that they can interchange responsibilities of creating...it's almost as if we don't actually have a DM really), we rely more on our wingers to create than before, RVP's job is much more limited to being a poacher than it was last season and our full-backs are more involved and more integral to our attacks.


All of these are changes to the system and the tactics. There was a hole in our creativity department that was caused by Cesc's departure, and since it's almost impossible to replace someone of Cesc's class, AW shared the creativity burden amongst all the midfielders. We now do not just rely on the person in the "Cesc role" to create, because everyone does.
The system is less fluid in terms of passing, but that has a bit to do with the team gelling imo. We saw just how fluid and dangerous we can be vs Blackburn.

I stand by my statement, there is no Cesc role anymore. There's a player who is playing as an AM, but that doesn't make the team oriented around him. The team is not built around the AM anymore.
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Post by Sri Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:33 am

^^ I like how you put it. And I think this is a better set up than what we had earlier.

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Post by Jay29 Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:19 pm

But don't the personnel define what the roles of their positions are?

That's essientially what I said. There have been minor tactical tweaks because of a difference in personnel.

We clearly do not play with a box-to-box midfielder now. Arteta is a very good AM, and if Wenger wanted him to play there, he would have played Ramsey in his natural position and resume with the formation that we had from the start of last season, but he decided to change.

I'd argue that we didn't play with a B2B midfielder last season, either. The term gets bounded about too much, in any case.

It's still the same formation, though, regardless of who's in that midfield. There are still two deeper central midfielders, and there is still one advanced midfielder. Nothing has changed in that regard.

If Wenger wanted the formation to stay the same, he wouldn't have reconfigured it like he did. WE choose to call it the Cesc role, but it isn't the Cesc role anymore.

It is still the "Cesc" role, because the "Cesc" role is merely an attacking midfield role. We, as you said, chose to call it that because Cesc performed remarkably there, but it's still the same position where the player there carries out the same duties.

We have Song who is now playing more through-balls than David Silva, which is a change in tactics as our DM is also responsible for creating. We have no b2b midfielder (Instead we have another player to anchor with Song so that they can interchange responsibilities of creating...it's almost as if we don't actually have a DM really), we rely more on our wingers to create than before, RVP's job is much more limited to being a poacher than it was last season and our full-backs are more involved and more integral to our attacks.

Song was playing through balls last season and the season before. Song has rarely played as a pure holding player. Even last season, Wilshere would often stay back while Song went forward. It's not a new thing. Song has just improved his skills.

Full backs have always been integral to our offence. Has been for 14 seasons now. Again, it's not a new thing for this season.

All of these are changes to the system and the tactics. There was a hole in our creativity department that was caused by Cesc's departure, and since it's almost impossible to replace someone of Cesc's class, AW shared the creativity burden amongst all the midfielders. We now do not just rely on the person in the "Cesc role" to create, because everyone does.

See, I don't think that's the case at all. Sharing the creative burden suggests that Arteta gets forward and creates as well, but he doesn't. Song has a lot of assists by playing balls from deep, but we've been trying that for a while now. His passing has improved a lot and now it's paying off.

One of the reasosn for Ramsey's struggles this year is that there is too much creative burden on him. It's obvious that the AM role in the side is the main creator and it's the players' failure to produce that has resulted in threads like this asking what the problem is.

I stand by my statement, there is no Cesc role anymore. There's a player who is playing as an AM, but that doesn't make the team oriented around him. The team is not built around the AM anymore.

A player playing AM = Cesc role. It's the same thing.


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Post by Sri Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:11 pm

http://www.sportskeeda.com/2012/02/04/why-arsenal-fans-should-be-patient-with-aaron-ramsey/

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Post by 6unner Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:48 pm





I'd argue that we didn't play with a B2B midfielder last season, either. The term gets bounded about too much, in any case.


Wilshere played the b2b position last year just like Ramsey played the b2b before his injury.

I would actually argue that if we want to play the attacking ball control beautiful football that we are use to, we do need to try and find an AM.
If Artetta was actually that good at the CAM role he would be in that position but it is not what his strengths are. Wenger has always tried to take a player that plays a position and convert him to another. In some cases it has worked but in as many or more cases it has not. Trying to convert Ramsey to a CAM has not worked and I do not think that when Wilshere comes back that he will be any better at it.

The team as built now I really look at as nothing more that a counter attacking team. We look to try and play a longer pass than we are use to to either Walcott or Gervihno. So they can use there speed to open up the final third. When the final third gets crowded though we don't seem to have a plan B since there is nobody left that is consistent at creating. We still play a high line and commit too many players forward and end up being hit with a counter attack and it becomes costly. If we are going to be a counter attack team, we will have to park the bus like other teams have done with us for years. That is why we have many of the 1-0 and 2-1 wins like yesterday. With few of 7-1 results that we had with Blackburn.

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Post by Raptorgunner Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:06 pm

RealGunner wrote:Diaby is back in 2 weeks as well

I just heard that he will be back in 10 days, not sure where you get 2 weeks from. Shocked
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:14 pm

He needs to retire, he's killing too many people.......

BTW LOL @ Diaby back in 2 weeks, face it his injuries is like a rolling contract everytime the 2 weeks is up his injury is renewed for another 2 weeks

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Post by REWB Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:36 pm

diaby is simply living the happiest and greatest life in the world, incredible.
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Post by Highburied Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:08 pm

@Fady

Maybe you are understanding it wrong.

Cesc role is called because he was the main reason why Wenger changed formation from 442 to 4231.

Now, as far as Im concerned, nothing has changed since he left, even slightest changes in central midfield but still they are instructed to play in 4231.

Even sometimes when pressing, Ramsey reminds me like Fabregas.

I remember last year when Fabregas was injured, Wenger tried a minor different tactic in central midfield, forming a triangle by giving all three CMs same duties... they rotated from deep to the middle and advanced but for some reason I never seen that in second half of last season.

Jay said it all concerning the formation and I approve it.

Back to Ramsey.

He needed a rest and probably needs a bit longer until Wenger figures something else out regarding the tactics.

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Post by Iceman Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:09 pm

I'm not understanding anything wrong, really. Just observe and look at the team. Just because the formation looks the same doesn't mean that it IS the same and doesn't mean that the tactics are the same. Almost all the teams in Europe play with a 4-3-3 now....but does that mean that every 4-3-3 or variation of it is the same? No, it doesn't. They are applied differently in different clubs and ours is being applied differently now than it was before.

If we're going to be picky with naming it, when we were playing with Cesc it was a 4-2-1-3 and now it's more of a 4-2-3-1

Whether Ramsey reminds you of Fabregas or not isn't the issue though, the tactics are different. We do not have a B2B midfielder, even though we COULD apply that formation, but Wenger chose not to. That is a change in tactics. Song providing so much offensive contributions is also a tactical change. The fact that we rely on our wingers more and that we have more dribbles per game than any other team in the EPL is also indicative of a change. The facts are there for all to see...just because you want to prove that Wenger is stubborn and tactically inept, even though he isn't, doesn't make you right.

We used to play a formation that revolves around Cesc in the last couple of season, and so that role was called "The Cesc Role", but now the formation is slightly different and it is built around RVP's poaching abilities meaning that it does not revolve around the AM and eradicating the whole concept of "The Cesc Role". A player playing as an AM for Arsenal does not and should not automatically be compared and contrasted with Cesc.
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Post by 6unner Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:11 pm

Iceman wrote:I'm not understanding anything wrong, really. Just observe and look at the team. Just because the formation looks the same doesn't mean that it IS the same and doesn't mean that the tactics are the same. Almost all the teams in Europe play with a 4-3-3 now....but does that mean that every 4-3-3 or variation of it is the same? No, it doesn't. They are applied differently in different clubs and ours is being applied differently now than it was before.

If we're going to be picky with naming it, when we were playing with Cesc it was a 4-2-1-3 and now it's more of a 4-2-3-1

Whether Ramsey reminds you of Fabregas or not isn't the issue though, the tactics are different. We do not have a B2B midfielder, even though we COULD apply that formation, but Wenger chose not to. That is a change in tactics. Song providing so much offensive contributions is also a tactical change. The fact that we rely on our wingers more and that we have more dribbles per game than any other team in the EPL is also indicative of a change. The facts are there for all to see...just because you want to prove that Wenger is stubborn and tactically inept, even though he isn't, doesn't make you right.

We used to play a formation that revolves around Cesc in the last couple of season, and so that role was called "The Cesc Role", but now the formation is slightly different and it is built around RVP's poaching abilities meaning that it does not revolve around the AM and eradicating the whole concept of "The Cesc Role". A player playing as an AM for Arsenal does not and should not automatically be compared and contrasted with Cesc.

I agree tactics have changed a little and they are constantly in flux in our games as they go. It is like we try to play everything down the wings these days. It just ends up more than not that RVP ends up just trying to figure something out.
1. We try to play down the wings when that does not work
2. We try to play like we have in the past using the "Cesc roll". Failes
3. We end up with RVP trying to create anything he can.

the biggest issue I have seen all year is that when we get to step 3 which happens almost all the time. This is also where we see Song, TV and our CBs trying to go forward to create something. Leaving us vulnerable to counter attacks.

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Post by aleumdance Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:55 pm

GUYS JUST DISCOVERED SOME SCARY $HIT

The last 2 times Ramsey Scored important Bin Laden and GahdAfi died a day after


THEN HE SCORES ON SATRUDAY WHITNEY HOUSTON DIES ON SUNDAY
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Post by 6unner Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:24 pm

yep I see the correlation between bin laden, gahdafi and whtney.

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