The definitive "Wenger in/out" thread

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Post by Jay29 Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:17 am

Since it seems like that after every game we dont win a new thread questioning Wenger's position crops up, I thought it'd be better to have one thread people can use to constructively discuss Arsene Wenger as manager and express their views about whether they think he should stay, go, be given more time, be sacked immediately, etc.

My views on this situation can be best aired by listing evidence for and against him, though a lot of these points effect each other and are a direct concequence of each other. Do feel free to debate any of these points:

For:

-- He's the most successful manager in Arsenal history. A man that has won three Premier League titles and three F.A. Cups, pioneerd the Invincibles and took the club to their first ever Champions League final deserves respect and a little more wiggle room than usual.

-- His eye for talent is matched by very few. He's signed unknown talents and seemingly average players and has turned them into very good players. A valuable talent that has seen the likes of Vieira, Pires, Henry, Fabregas, van Persie, Ljungberg, Gilberto and Toure play for us, to name but a few.

-- He does a lot with seemingly little. The club doesn't have the resources other clubs have but he's managed to build a competitive team almost every time. Not many managers can accomplish that.

-- He's created an image for the club and it's his presence that attracts a lot of players and fans to us.

-- Keeps the dressing room united under one cause and disposes of any "infections" quickly. The club has experienced many failures but few players have left because of a falling out with the manager or other players.

-- Was the driving force behind the club's much improvced facilities, including a better training ground, better youth academy and a new stadium.

-- Has improved the youth system immensley.

Against:

-- Has not won a trophy since 2005.

-- Has built squads capable of challenging and winning honours but always fail to go all the way at almost the exact same time every season.

-- The club has had an injury crisis every year since 2008/2009 at least, at almost the exact same time every year. Poor preperation for matches and recovery afterwards could be a cause, and Wenger, along with his backrrom staff, are responsible for those methods of training.

-- Lacks tactical flexibility and often makes poor subsitutions.

-- His ability to man manage and motivate has dwindled. Team has bottled it several times and seem to get stuck in ruts of poor form and confidence for too long i.e. post Carling Cup final 10/11.

-- Reluctance to go the extra mile to sign a player of real quality and really improving the depth of the squad.

-- Stubbornly sticking with players that offer little to the squad, either because of injuries or lack of quality.

-- Inability to hold on to key players every year.

Summary

Has done a hell of a lot for the club and will always be a legend, but the last seven years or so have not been kind to him. The same issues have cropped up too often for our failures to be soley down to factors out of our control like leg-breaking tackles, refereeing decisions and oil-rich owners and there's little to suggest those issues cannot be fixed.

Sacking him now would be complete madness, but a change in the summer may not be such a bad thing regardless of where we end up this season. A top four finish may buy him an extra life with the fans, but he has to make sure that the quality of the squad does not decline as dramatically as it did last summer. Unfortunately, there's not much to suggest that he can do that but it can't be ruled out completely.

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Post by Sushi Master Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:42 am

If he can obtain 4th spot then I'm for him staying. But only if he improves the squad. It's clearly not good enough to challenge titles. There's also a matter to who would replace him and who's available.

I also want him to accept his failures and get rid of all the dead weights eating up the wage bill. I want him to be more ruthless with players who do not perform. I'm also not sure if Wenger is the one to decides this, but contract talks should be done during the season and ASAP so we don't have Nasri/Clichy/Flamini situations again.

This is all theoretical. If we maintain our current league form then I'm all for a sack, because I just don't see him doing any drastic changes due to his stubborness.
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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:54 am

I dont think anyone is thinking about sacking him now, but even if we make the top 4 he must go. I hope we do make the top 4, if we do make it and Wenger stays nothing will change, he will not bow down to anyone and will not change is philosophy.

The players need a Coach not a father, Wenger still thinks its 2005 and Arsenal have no money, we are a money making machine and still buying the same players.

I really think its best for all of us if Wenger leaves, we all know he has no plan b and will never change.

Almost every Arsenal fan I talk to all want him out, Wenger has lost the fans and everything is happening to Arsenal is his fault in the fans eyes.
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Post by Amar Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:08 am

I remember saying at this point last year if Wenger failed to win a trophy this season, I'd want him gone. We're still in the hunt for a couple trophies, but even if he doesn't get them, I'd still want him to stay.

He's faced a ridiculous situation this year, not just with injuries (yeah I know, a situation we face every year), but the start of the year where he had a completely unsettled squad. Normally we come flying out of the gates and choke later Rolling Eyes , but the first couple of weeks was a huge handicap. Of course he himself was partly to blame for the transfers of 2 starters, but just look at his statements through that whole summer window...he simply didn't believe he would lose both Fab and Nasri, and it was a situation he wasn't prepared for.

My biggest concern is that, I just don't believe there is anyone better given the constraints that come with managing Arsenal. He's still a powerful recruiting tool, and can attract almost any player because of his past accomplishments. But one of his most important assets which we need at the moment is his ability to nurture talent. Face it, we aren't going to spend big, especially with some huge debts and very weak sponsorship deals, and therefore its important we continue to work with what we've got and hope Wenger can help take some of the younger talent to another level for next year.

Another extremely worrying problem that could arise with his sacking this summer is the situation with Van Persie. IMO, it would basically solidify his departure from the club. I know that no player is bigger than the club, but let's be frank here, at the moment Van Persie is the club and is the only guy holding the attack together. VP knows he owes his career to Wenger and only with Wenger here can we convince him to stay.

What Wenger does this summer window will eventually decide his future. I don't expect us to spend big once again, but I do expect Wenger to make the right moves. Get that striker we desperately need and if possible, bring in a dynamic midfielder. But to me, more importantly, move on some of the mediocre players from the wage bill so we can loosen up our hands a bit. Simple mathematics shows us shite players are costing us upwards of £10million per year on salaries.

Obviously many of you will disagree with me, and will want him sacked because you've been fed up with the performances recently, but I think this man deserves one last season to come through.
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Post by Eman Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:18 am

There is nothing I want more than to see our youngsters and cheap unknowns unite and conquer the world like was predicted so many years ago, Wenger's philosophy being proven completely right and going down in legend along the way...but you can't always get what you want. It would just seem so unjust if he were to retire in such a shameful fashion, but on the other hand, it's just not working right now.

I will give him the rest of the season, and then the summer to sign some immense talent. I am doubtful he will do this, but if he does, he's fine by me. If we get into August and Wenger says "we have a complete squad" without making some big moves to improve the club, I'll have lost hope.
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Post by tsgooner1 Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:21 am

For:ability to create and recreate a contender very quickly. look at liverpool, they havent been good in three years and going, i respect them a lot but lets be honest. we have had weak sides, 2006/2007, 2008/2009 and look how quickly he was able to turn those teams into title contenders.

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Post by 6unner Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:50 am

I agree I do not think that sacking wenger now is the answer to anything.

In looking at wengers time at AFC you can actually look at it in almost 2 completly opposite halves. He started his time at AFC in 1996 for the next 8 years the club seemed to be doing great.
He was signing kids and creating WC players. Henry, Fabregas, van Persie, Ljungberg and all those that have actually made it were from this time.
He also became the most successful manager in AFC history and WINNING!

Since then we have seen the complete opposite.
Win anything?
Signing youth and turning them into WC players (be honest). Not one to the level of Henery, RVP or Cesc. A few that have potential but not one that has come true. So is his youth program as successful as we all like it to be?

Again I am not saying Sack Wenger! But in the summer I think that the Board and fans need to start discussing it more. This summer will mark 16 years at arsenal for Arsene.
The first 8 years being the best.
Then it seems as though maybe the modern game passed him up. It almost seems as though we have been in a decline since then with it gaining speed this year.

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Post by Ali Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:22 am

I will only be for it if HE STEPS DOWN, and HE CHOOSES HIS SUCCESSOR.
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Post by Sri Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:08 am

Wenger leaves and that will be the end of this club. Take my head if you will. I am not even going to bother reading all the arguments above.

You expect players to be loyal to the club which does so much for them. And as fans, you can't be loyal to a manager who has done so much for this club?

Tough times indeed.

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Post by urbaNRoots Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:56 am

If Arsenal doesn't finish in Top4 or win Champions League [lulz], he should go.
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Post by Jay29 Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:54 pm

srigooner wrote:Wenger leaves and that will be the end of this club. Take my head if you will. I am not even going to bother reading all the arguments above.

You expect players to be loyal to the club which does so much for them. And as fans, you can't be loyal to a manager who has done so much for this club?

Tough times indeed.

Fans have stuck with Wenger for seven trophyless periods, and many are willing to give him one more chance. How is that not showing loyalty? How many years do you stick by someone before it's time to move on? Eight years is an incredibly long time in football.

And no, it would not be the end of the club. The transition period would be rough but I fail to see how it'd be the end of the club. I respect your point of view but could you maybe elaborate?

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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:26 pm

Wenger leaving it will be the beginning of Arsenal, we need a young manager who is willing to fight to get the right players and not just relay on the youth to mature and come save the club.

How can it get any worse than this? we are the laughing stuck of the world. Wenger will burn Arsenal to the ground.
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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:47 pm

'I hope the next 16 years are just as good'
Arsène Wenger will be satisfied if Arsenal's next 16 years are as productive as their last 16.

The Arsenal manager has enjoyed plenty of success since he arrived at the Club in 1996, overseeing two league and cup doubles, seven major trophies in total and an unbeaten title campaign.

Times are tougher right now with the Gunners hunting a first Premier League win in five matches and facing, in Wenger's words, "a big fight" to secure Champions League football next season.

At his pre-match press conference the Frenchman was reminded that Arsenal have never been as low as seventh at this stage of the season while he’s been in charge.

"The fact that we have never been in this position is rather a credit to me in 16 years so I do not take that as blame," he responded.

"I take that as fantastic consistency, and that is the most difficult thing at the top level.

"I believe we played 15 years on the trot in the Champions League and we play in 10 days in the last 16 of the Champions League. We want to come back in the Champions League position in the league, we want to prepare properly for the next round of the FA Cup and I wish that in the next 16 years it will be exactly the same for the club and that the fans will be happy.

"I am here to make all of the fans happy and when I do not manage to do it I am, of course, not happy. But what is most important is that we have our fans happy at the end of the season.

"We lost three games and then the confidence drops a little bit," added Wenger. "But overall we have shown a great response against Aston Villa where we came back with a fantastic 3-2 win and I feel that on Wednesday night we deserved to win the game.

"Overall I feel this team is strong mentally with a good spirit and attitude. We are ready for a fight and that is the most important thing."

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/-i-hope-the-next-16-years-are-just-as-good-
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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:14 pm

I am yet to understand why a manager who is given the money refuses to buy players? :facepalm:

its every managers dream to be like Wenger with full power.

I think having the full power is getting to his head and that is why he does not listen to anyone. What is the worst could happen to him? he will leave for Madrid or another big club.
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Post by MJ Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:21 pm

Summer 2013 is as far as I'll go without silverware.

This is a great man that has done great things for this club but I think the decision to part ways would be mutual and AW loves Arsenal more than his pride. Scratch that, Arsenal is his pride.

I think we'll win something but if in the case we don't then 8 seasons is it. Hate if you want but that's generous time I've given.
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Post by Sri Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:11 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:
Fans have stuck with Wenger for seven trophyless periods, and many are willing to give him one more chance. How is that not showing loyalty? How many years do you stick by someone before it's time to move on? Eight years is an incredibly long time in football.

And no, it would not be the end of the club. The transition period would be rough but I fail to see how it'd be the end of the club. I respect your point of view but could you maybe elaborate?

As much as the blame is on Wenger for these eight long years, I feel sorry for him at some level. He is no crystal-ball-gazer to have forseen the long injury spells we have suffered to key cogs in our team. The blame is that he could have bought replacements. In his view, and I concur, what happens when the injured players return? We end up with more players than we can field on the pitch. No player would like to be in a team where he is satisfied with a place on the bench.

Imagine if we had 2 of Fabregas or 2 of RvP - you can only play one and the other has to be benched - depending on form or rotation factors.

Where I will not defend Wenger is the deadwood in the team. Clearing that up would give us more choices for better players. But how is Wenger to find a club willing to take on a Almunia or a Squillacci? These guys are on wages that they don't merit. And they won't take a wage cut to get first team action in a smaller team! Why would they? Who doesn't love money?

These decisions by Wenger are what I would hold him at blame for. But these are rectifiable issues. Removing Almunia from our PL squad list is one step in that direction.

Its cruel to say Wenger doesn't want this club to do well. Would you say the same about SAF if Man Utd were on a spree like we are?

Apart from injuries, our other big problem was holding on to our stars when these 'stars' were homesick (Cesc, Reyes) or wanted to move to another club for more money (mercenaries). Either of these cases can't be pinned on Wenger alone.

We only have approximations of how much transfer money we have and the economics behind it. The general idea is that we have the money needed for making the right transfers and that the money we have also needs to cover the wage bill of that player through his contract. This goes on to put a ceiling on our wage bills too. Wenger the economist, with access to our funds, would have a better idea about this. We can only make guesses, and that is not enough evidence for me to point a finger at him in this regard. I, for one, can't make my decisions on approximations - I need hard facts. Just my PoV in this matter.

I still put my trust in Wenger. He is beyond the image we conjure of an old senile stubborn man wanting to prove the ideology he sticks up for. I see him as a leader faced with a lot of adversities, not all of which he had forseen, and a leader wanting to right some of the mistakes he has made.

Don't know about you all, but I for one, trust Wenger. He hasn't finished his job at this club yet and we will see him win trophies with his idealogy. If that doesn't come to pass, I will be a disappointed man.

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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:11 pm

MJGunner wrote:Summer 2013 is as far as I'll go without silverware.

This is a great man that has done great things for this club but I think the decision to part ways would be mutual and AW loves Arsenal more than his pride. Scratch that, Arsenal is his pride.

I think we'll win something but if in the case we don't then 8 seasons is it. Hate if you want but that's generous time I've given.

What is one more year going to solve? he will sell RVP in the summer and Arsenal wil take another few steps backward and he wont sign anyone. He will never change. He has lost the support of most fans and he keeps losing more every game.

I dont blame any Arsenal player, its the coaches fault who sends them out there when they are not good enouph.

We are a selling club and a place for rejects to come and prove themselves or youngster who want to come and move to a better club in few years and that is type of challenge Wenger is looking for.
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Post by Sri Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:
What is one more year going to solve? he will sell RVP in the summer and Arsenal wil take another few steps backward and he wont sign anyone. He will never change. He has lost the support of most fans and he keeps losing more every game.

I dont blame any Arsenal player, its the coaches fault who sends them out there when they are not good enouph.

We are a selling club and a place for rejects to come and prove themselves or youngster who want to come and move to a better club in few years and that is type of challenge Wenger is looking for.

Raptor - I respect you as a poster on this forum and as a massive arsenal fan who wants the very best for this club.

But I can't adopt this outlook of hopelessness that you put on. There are times when you are like this, and times when you are full of hope for the coming games. For example, I remember your enthusiasm after the Chelsea match.

I have been through such phases myself and currently, no matter how badly we play, I just find a reason to believe that all is not wrong with Arsenal. There is only so much bad luck we can have.

We may not be as good this season as we were in the last, at this time of the year. But I think the current team and the current captain are much better than the last.

My intention is not to pull you up for your views, or pick an argument over them. You have as much right to your views as I have to mine. But sometimes, I just feel sad to read some posts on this forum.

In all honesty, I hope our team puts together a string of great performances and more importantly, results, to give some of you the belief that I have in our team. And I sincerely hope that truly passionate fans, such as yourself, find your reasons to believe in this team too. The way I see it, these are tough times and we need to stick together through them. Disintegrating at our level would lead to a disintegration at higher levels.

Also, I hope that your prophecy for the summer never comes true. That would be a very hard pill to swallow. Yet, I still feel we'll pull through this together and win together. Those have been the foundations for our success, afterall.

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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:29 pm

srigooner wrote:
Raptorgunner wrote:
What is one more year going to solve? he will sell RVP in the summer and Arsenal wil take another few steps backward and he wont sign anyone. He will never change. He has lost the support of most fans and he keeps losing more every game.

I dont blame any Arsenal player, its the coaches fault who sends them out there when they are not good enouph.

We are a selling club and a place for rejects to come and prove themselves or youngster who want to come and move to a better club in few years and that is type of challenge Wenger is looking for.

Raptor - I respect you as a poster on this forum and as a massive arsenal fan who wants the very best for this club.

But I can't adopt this outlook of hopelessness that you put on. There are times when you are like this, and times when you are full of hope for the coming games. For example, I remember your enthusiasm after the Chelsea match.

I have been through such phases myself and currently, no matter how badly we play, I just find a reason to believe that all is not wrong with Arsenal. There is only so much bad luck we can have.

We may not be as good this season as we were in the last, at this time of the year. But I think the current team and the current captain are much better than the last.

My intention is not to pull you up for your views, or pick an argument over them. You have as much right to your views as I have to mine. But sometimes, I just feel sad to read some posts on this forum.

In all honesty, I hope our team puts together a string of great performances and more importantly, results, to give some of you the belief that I have in our team. And I sincerely hope that truly passionate fans, such as yourself, find your reasons to believe in this team too. The way I see it, these are tough times and we need to stick together through them. Disintegrating at our level would lead to a disintegration at higher levels.

Also, I hope that your prophecy for the summer never comes true. That would be a very hard pill to swallow. Yet, I still feel we'll pull through this together and win together. Those have been the foundations for our success, afterall.

I know what you saying and I do agree with you. I know I am being negative and I should not read too many article on Arsenal and wenger its just gets me going.

Its depressing seeing our Arsenal, its no fair really, no one fears us anymore. We have 15 games and We must win every single game. There is no more excuse we have only e players out injured and every game is cup final game.

The good news is that Chelsea will be with out Cashly and Terry so they could lose more points and hope we cant take advantages of that.

I know it does not look like but when it comes game time, I am behind Arsenal till the last sec, will never stop but, we the fans need something back.

Wenger has to take charge and put Ramsey and Walcott on the bench.


Last edited by Raptorgunner on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Sri Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:36 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:
I know what you saying and I do agree with you. I know I am being negative and I should not read too many article on Arsenal and wenger its just gets me going.

Its depressing seeing our Arsenal, its no fair really, no one fears us anymore. We have 15 games and We must win every single game. There is no more excuse we have only e players out injured and every game is cup final game.

The good news is that Chelsea will be out Cashly and Terry so they could lose more points and hope we cant take advantages of that.

I know it does not look like but when it comes game time, I am behind Arsenal till the last sec, will never stop but, we the fans need something back.

Wenger has to take charge and put Ramsey and Walcott on the bench.

I know what you mean mate. We can still get into top 4. We can still win the FA Cup. Its a good return for such a turbulent season, a return I will be happy with.

Whats most important now is to get back to winning and notching up those points. We can still make it.

Wenger says he is going to rotate the squad for tomorrow. We might see Rosicky, Henry, Benayoun - all get starts. Ramsey needs to take some time out. Hes a strong lad, he'll come back stronger. Walcott - I really don't know what to say about him. He has it in him to be great - if only he could bury the chances that come his way!

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Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:38 pm

srigooner wrote:
Wenger says he is going to rotate the squad for tomorrow. We might see Rosicky, Henry, Benayoun - all get starts. Ramsey needs to take some time out. Hes a strong lad, he'll come back stronger. Walcott - I really don't know what to say about him. He has it in him to be great - if only he could bury the chances that come his way!

If we see Wlacott and Ramsey on the bench then we know Wenger is listening and sending out a message if you are shit you wont play.
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Post by Jay29 Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:38 pm

As much as the blame is on Wenger for these eight long years, I feel sorry for him at some level. He is no crystal-ball-gazer to have forseen the long injury spells we have suffered to key cogs in our team. The blame is that he could have bought replacements. In his view, and I concur, what happens when the injured players return? We end up with more players than we can field on the pitch. No player would like to be in a team where he is satisfied with a place on the bench.

Imagine if we had 2 of Fabregas or 2 of RvP - you can only play one and the other has to be benched - depending on form or rotation factors.

I agree that signing replacements for every injury and every possible injury is not the solution to an injury crisis, for it only gives you trouble in the long run.

However, the fact that we suffer a high amount of injuries every season and every time it derails our season makes me think that it can't just be down to bad luck. No club can be so unlucky as to have all its fullbacks injured at the same time, or to have players recovering from injury suffer major set-backs, and so on. Sure, there's an element of misfortune there but the fact that very few clubs go through the same thing surely suggests something is wrong somewhere and I hold the fact that this issue has remained unresolved for so long against Wenger and his backroom staff.

Where I will not defend Wenger is the deadwood in the team. Clearing that up would give us more choices for better players. But how is Wenger to find a club willing to take on a Almunia or a Squillacci? These guys are on wages that they don't merit. And they won't take a wage cut to get first team action in a smaller team! Why would they? Who doesn't love money?

Perhaps if we lower our asking prices for these players we may have better success in selling. I, of course, understand the difficulty in selling poor players on high wages and don't blame the manager for not being able to do so. I do, though, have to question why it has been allowed to be this way.

Its cruel to say Wenger doesn't want this club to do well. Would you say the same about SAF if Man Utd were on a spree like we are?

I've personally never held this point of view and to be frank it's idiotic logic.

We only have approximations of how much transfer money we have and the economics behind it. The general idea is that we have the money needed for making the right transfers and that the money we have also needs to cover the wage bill of that player through his contract. This goes on to put a ceiling on our wage bills too. Wenger the economist, with access to our funds, would have a better idea about this. We can only make guesses, and that is not enough evidence for me to point a finger at him in this regard. I, for one, can't make my decisions on approximations - I need hard facts. Just my PoV in this matter.

That's a solid perspective to have on the matter. You are right that we can only really speculate based on past dealing and comments from significant figures within the club. Our financial figures do suggest a healthy budget is there, but the only hard fact we have is that poor players are earning more than they should which, again, I have to question why since it could be the difference between us signing a decent player for £10mil or a quality player for £20mil.

I still put my trust in Wenger. He is beyond the image we conjure of an old senile stubborn man wanting to prove the ideology he sticks up for. I see him as a leader faced with a lot of adversities, not all of which he had forseen, and a leader wanting to right some of the mistakes he has made.

The question is though is he doing enough to right those mistakes? I think this is where a large part of the doubt from the fans come from. As much as external factors have had an effect, there are things within Wenger's control that have not been dealt with.

Don't know about you all, but I for one, trust Wenger. He hasn't finished his job at this club yet and we will see him win trophies with his idealogy. If that doesn't come to pass, I will be a disappointed man.

Admittedly my trust in the man is being severely tested at the moment, but I do want him to succeed again. It's sad to see such a great manager not succeed and I believe a lot of fans feel the same way, too.

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The definitive "Wenger in/out" thread Empty Re: The definitive "Wenger in/out" thread

Post by Raptorgunner Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:51 pm

What kills the fans is that he always looks for the cheap way out, instead of signing Podolski, and bid the right price he goes and signs a 19 year old kid who no one has heard off.

Every player is for sale at the right price. Every year we go through the same injures, Diaby has been injured every year since he joined us and what we do when he has no played a game we go and give him another 4 years.

There are many great players we could sign and give them the money Diaby is getting every week.


Last edited by Raptorgunner on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by MJ Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:53 pm

A sobering stat. If 70 points is the average to get to 4th place, then we have to win 11/15 games. No room for error now. Our true ascension or fall begins tomorrow.
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Post by Sri Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:05 pm

I agree with your justifications Jay. No arguments about what you are pointing at.

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