Derby della Madonnina

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Post by Arquitecto Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:30 pm

I will update this thread tomorrow once I cool down and recharge.

But until then all I have to say is the loss is nowhere near as bad as we have stated due to many factors and until then... focus on the positives and the alternatives to knee jerking and negativity.

See you tomorrow with my full update.
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Post by Ganso Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:42 pm

im actually not that butthurt since juve and udi lost points.we'll win the next one
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Post by Dante Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:44 pm

there's not that much to analyze actually.

unless you wanna discuss catennacio tactics
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Post by baresi Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:02 pm

Dante13 wrote:there's not that much to analyze actually.

unless you wanna discuss catennacio tactics
played at its best tonights, nothing wrong about that though.
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Post by pUsHa Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:03 pm

Everything is pretty obvious .... Nothing to discuss here .... the league is still ours even tho we will most likely loose the next game agaisnt inter and juve ...
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Post by Zealous Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:04 pm

Losing a derby sucks but Milan are still in a good position to win the league.
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Post by Ganso Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:05 pm

seriously though,we need to find a way to counter vibe and his sorcery....
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Post by Dante Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:21 pm

Ganso wrote:seriously though,we need to find a way to counter vibe and his sorcery....


lol .. i just learned about that.. lulz

nah it's just a coincidence. wait untill the Champions League and you ll see Razz

baresi wrote:
Dante13 wrote:there's not that much to analyze actually.

unless you wanna discuss catennacio tactics
played at its best tonights, nothing wrong about that though.

Well , they got it right yeah.. but that's about it.

It's f* catennacio , you analyse it only when it fails Neutral
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Post by mr.galliani Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:14 am

Firstly I want to say for the first time since Allegri took over as manager, I am truly happy with the substitutions he made. Spot on. Putting Robinho in the hole and dropping Urby to left back was the kind of brave, almost bordering silly move that I want to see from him more often. The kind of substitution that is seen often from an attacking, reckless, fearless coach.

Then putting El Shaarawy on for Pato injected the energy that we expect from Pato, but no longer get. Simply for Stephan's efforts in the short time he was on, I would reward him with a start next week. Pato needs to again learn how he got into the first team, through hard work and constant effort and how it feels to come off the bench, or sit out a game completely. This consistent belief in him to shine through from Allegri is not the correct approach, proven by the results.

His selections up front were fine, even if that may sound contradictive to what I just previously said. Urby did well against Atalanta and has failed as a mezz'ala on numerous occasions so putting him as the treq. and dropping Boateng to the mezz'ala role was only logical. Pato and Ibra up front seemed the most dangerous.

Where I am unhappy is with Allegri's choice of Nesta over Mexes and Zambrotta over Antonini. It seems to me as though Allegri is sitting on the fence between playing a pressing game with a high line, or playing the more defensive, counter attacking football we saw from him when he first arrived. More often than not, including tonight, we play the former brand of football which is why I am dumbfounded to the selections of the slower Nesta and Zambrotta as opposed to the faster, more dynamic and more suited to an open game, Mexes and Antonini, both of whom are capable of forward runs and would just generally provide more danger going forward and attacking than the two that were selected.

However, there is no doubt we were unlucky. Yes we did get a lucky break for the wrongly disallowed goal, but we also hit the crossbar, where much more dangerous through the course of the game and didn't deserve to come away empty handed. The fact that we did not score was not only because of our bad luck, but the astute defending of Inter, mainly Lucio and Samuel who were amazing. Even Zanetti and Nagatomo were great and should be commended. Hats off to Inter in that aspect.

Otherwise, I am not too worried. Juve one point away, we lost to the most in form team in the league and there is still a long way to go.

/optimistic post.
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Post by Dante Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:31 am

mr.galliani wrote:Firstly I want to say for the first time since Allegri took over as manager, I am truly happy with the substitutions he made. Spot on. Putting Robinho in the hole and dropping Urby to left back was the kind of brave, almost bordering silly move that I want to see from him more often. The kind of substitution that is seen often from an attacking, reckless, fearless coach.

Then putting El Shaarawy on for Pato injected the energy that we expect from Pato, but no longer get. Simply for Stephan's efforts in the short time he was on, I would reward him with a start next week. Pato needs to again learn how he got into the first team, through hard work and constant effort and how it feels to come off the bench, or sit out a game completely. This consistent belief in him to shine through from Allegri is not the correct approach, proven by the results.

His selections up front were fine, even if that may sound contradictive to what I just previously said. Urby did well against Atalanta and has failed as a mezz'ala on numerous occasions so putting him as the treq. and dropping Boateng to the mezz'ala role was only logical. Pato and Ibra up front seemed the most dangerous.

Where I am unhappy is with Allegri's choice of Nesta over Mexes and Zambrotta over Antonini. It seems to me as though Allegri is sitting on the fence between playing a pressing game with a high line, or playing the more defensive, counter attacking football we saw from him when he first arrived. More often than not, including tonight, we play the former brand of football which is why I am dumbfounded to the selections of the slower Nesta and Zambrotta as opposed to the faster, more dynamic and more suited to an open game, Mexes and Antonini, both of whom are capable of forward runs and would just generally provide more danger going forward and attacking than the two that were selected.

However, there is no doubt we were unlucky. Yes we did get a lucky break for the wrongly disallowed goal, but we also hit the crossbar, where much more dangerous through the course of the game and didn't deserve to come away empty handed. The fact that we did not score was not only because of our bad luck, but the astute defending of Inter, mainly Lucio and Samuel who were amazing. Even Zanetti and Nagatomo were great and should be commended. Hats off to Inter in that aspect.

Otherwise, I am not too worried. Juve one point away, we lost to the most in form team in the league and there is still a long way to go.

/optimistic post.

very nice analysis. Spot on i would say!
The dissapointment is huge , but we can't always win. It's rather dissapointing though , seeing how we lost .. Milan-Tottenham all over again night Shocked
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Post by arabprince Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:41 am

I'll just take my knee-jerk reactions and place them here. Although Galliani, if Allegri didn't choose Nesta, we could have easily conceded more. He was godly today.

Inter are experts at this. Excluding their games against parma and lecce, their "resurgence" has been shaky 1-0 wins. They didn't deserve this win.

Milan played well. Pato showed up when he needed to. He made a few mistakes, but thats understandable he had a crazy week. The point is he worked hard and showed determination, and he was unlucky not to score.

A number of people had quality chances: Bommel, Emanu, Robson, Seedorf, any one of those players could have scored, and would have on another day.

Nocerino didn't impose himself too much. Ibra neither.

Nesta is still god as is Silva. ONE mistake from Abate, that was it. He has been out a while and wasn't supposed to play the is game, so I feel like he was rushed back onto the field. You can't be too upset at him.

Allegri has balls. Bringing on Binho for zambrotta. Was the right move. I like Emanu today. He wasn't a game changer, but he had some good moments. I also liked hte pace he brought to LB. One grip I would have with Allegri's decision is bringing on Shaarawy for pato, should've been Ibra. However, by that point I think the game was lost.

Credit to Milito for being classy and still finishing like a beast. And credit for Zanetti for being 23. The man is class.

Overall, we deserved a draw, if not a win. Good game overall. The way Inter are playing, I do not see them winning the Scudetto. They are depending on luck and it is bound to run out.
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Post by Cookie Monster Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 am

arabprince wrote: Inter are experts at this. Excluding their games against parma and lecce, their "resurgence" has been shaky 1-0 wins. They didn't deserve this win.

Agreed. I think a lot of you are giving Inter way too much credit. Sure they've done well to regroup after their abysmal start to the season, but tbh they really aren't that impressive. They play boring and ugly football and I really don't think that highly of them. That being said, they play ugly football better than any other team in the world, and today that worked in their favour.

I really don't have any negative comments to make towards Milan after this game. They played exciting, attacking football and deserved far more than a loss.

FFS we had inter pinned in their box almost the entire game. To those of you who said that they were counter attacking perfectly, seriously? Silva and Nesta cleaned up any attack that they pathetically tried to create and their goal came from a laughable mistake.

Anyways, well done Milan. Despite the loss, they proved that they're the strongest team in serie A today.

Congrats to Inter on your ugly win, keep up the "good" work :coffee:

I'm clearly quite humble in defeat lol

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Post by viepr149 Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:59 am

We didn't finish chances we had.

Emanullson can't play in the midfield. Very left footed.

Zambrotta is way too old. Play Taiwo if you must.

Ibra needs someone who is as creative as he is. Cassano was that person, but we don't have him now.

Pato and Ibra don't click.

Silva and Nesta are beasts

We need Ganso.

That's my breakdown.

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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:59 am

Well I've cooled down after swallowing the pill of losing the first Milan Derby since Allegri has taken the helm. Frankly, I'm upset and disappointed, but I knew this had to come some day.

Lets start off, It is arguable that maxed should have played the 4-2-3-1 instead of the 4-1-2-1-2 diamond which also dynamically changed often into a 4-3-1-2 as against teams like Inter who played 3 DMs and 1 quality wingers, it simply did not work and stifled us.

Starting off with the players:

Abate: I have no complaint over considering he was solid as a rock through the whole match as one mistake (as upsetting as this is) is not something you can truly condemn him for and especially coming off a 2 week injury right into a game.

Nesta-Silva: As usual, superb partnership and didn't give Milito-Pazzo anything to sniff as their goal came through a mistake in which Milito capitalized on as aside from that Inter had no true chances.

Zambrotta: This is where Allegri should have played Mexes as for all the tactical intelligence and guile of Zambro, he severely lacks pace and we needed our FBs to bomb forward as Mexes despite being a CB would have surely offered a better attacking threat as Zambro was to busy handling the threat of Zanetti who was Inter's best player last night.

Van Bommel: One of our best players last night as his discipline was immense along with his excellent chance to hit the bar. No complaints here as its a commendable performance.

Nocerino: Disappointed? No. Simply because I have said time and time again Nocerino's goalscoring form must not be mistaken for. Once his goals dry up people will see his somewhat limited capabilities. I don't like how he looks lost all to often along with the fact that he is not tenacious enough on the tackle. I provides workrate in attack yet its not enough, and his defense is questionable. Not starting quality for me and must be an impact sub.

Prince: Quite obvious Prince is not anymore a Mezzalla as he has clearly adapted to his trequartista role and the LCM position does not suit him. More on this later.

Urby: Lets start off with this, Urby NEVER WAS NEEDED for Milan. Galliani did not do his research when buying him. Why? We bought him to solve our LB problems yet he did not realize Urby was a left back who converted to winger simply cause he could not defend, which leaves him only to play him as a winger. If we played a winger system then he would thrive as he IS actually a solid and tricky winger. But playing him as TQ MUST stop as he lacks the creativity and is too one-footed to play there as even the LCM would have suited him better. This decision cost us.

Pato: He set up 2 decent attacks with his quality passing today but as a whole he was largely disappointing. It seems to be more and more true that this relationship with the unproffessional Barbara has given him a sense of pride that he is untouchable, hence his stupid move to make his frustration with Allegri public. He is lacking the work rate, does not seemed focused and clearly is 1/10th of the player we are used to seeing. We know the days when Pato is training hard and looks determined he scores like nothing. He needs to work harder and improve his tactical sense of the game to combine with Ibra or take the bench role. Very disappointed.

Ibra: Not so disappointed here simply because I knew from the start he would have a mountain to climb. Why? Only because Pato really does not give him hope to combine and that Samuel and Lucio BOTH seemed to focus especially on him as Samuel in particular HEAVILY marked him. Ibra has in the past actually has beaten better CBs and even done so against 2 markers, but the fact was our team increasingly relied on him and he produced admirably for how much pressure there was on him from Inter.


Here is the thing, it wasn't a disastrous game by any means as aside from Allegri's selection his in depth/on-field tactics were superb, yet a mistake and positioning of his players cost him his creativity.

His sub moves were superb when he took of Zambro and added Robinho where Urby switched to LB.

Yet, he should have started off this formation:

4-3-1-2

Abate-Nesta-Silva-Mexes

Seedorf-MvB-Nocerino

KPB
Ibra-Robinho

Another variation of this could have been with Urby as LCM instead of Nocerino or a varied formation in the form of Allegri's diamond.


I already spoke about Mexes starting, but Seedorf should have started. Why? I understand his lack of pace would cost us but in the absence of the vital aqualani his presence, experience and creativity was sorely missed earlier on to unlock the defense.


KPB SHOULD HAVE played the TQ simply because he has adapted so well there now and his energy, ball playing skill, decision making and ultimately chemistry with Ibra-Robinho was needed as Urby was sorely average and one-footed there.

What Allegri actually was planning was to simply for our fullbacks to provide the width and attack as both Abate and Zambro did not provide us and this is where our formation was rendered obsolete as he was too late to change the system until the goal came against us.

We looked essentially toothless in building our attacks and did not create enough. Yes there were chances with Pato, KPB, MvB and the unbelievably shitty finisher Robinho missing 2 CHANCES. But since the fullbacks did not do there attacking job, with the absence of Aquilani , Seedorf coming on too late, No chemistry up front, bad role placement of the players accumulated into micro-details with eventually cost our attack in the end.

Do I have to mention that Inter played a SUPERB GAME? Yes they parked the bus after the goal yet their tactical positioning and intelligence to shut us out was too much. Which is essentially why mid way through the game I did not see us score. Not because we looked daft of creativity, but it looked just like that Mourinho-esque wall that you look at and don't see anyone getting through. Inter had nothing to lose at all and this is another factor which put the pressure on us along with their given resurgence and momentum. This is why I had an extremely bad feeling about todays match. They wanted this game FAR more than us.

In the end, I hope Allegri learned from his small but costly mistakes because as a whole he was tactically astute today, but not in the areas of role of the players. Hopefully he will stick to what works best.

This essentially is a calling to the thick headed Galliani who refuses to buy us a proper mid along with a LB who can actually defend and attack. We need the depth in that area as otherwise we can forget Arsenal and the Scudetto will fade away.

I've said this time and time again that our midfield is extremely poor. Either to slow and not enough creativity. Someone like Montolivo or a class 10 role player is vital. I don't even have to mention the LB area.

Worst thing is we did not capitalize on Juve's dropped points but this is also a positive despite us being a point down. Yes the schedule will be tougher now but Allegri has ALWAYS bounced back well from defeats of such magnitude.

-Bright spots are that El-Sharawaay for his 8 minutes was superb and now I pray that he competes with Pato to give the latter something to think about.

-This wasn't our best squad in any aspect

-Hopefully Jan signings are made and if so, it can produce wonders to our limitations.

-Mistakes learned and how it can be built upon.


In the end, I highly admire the attitude shown here by the Milan posters as it has been very mature and intelligent after the win. BM3 said we can get through this loss if we stick together and I couldn't be more positive about this.

Until then, breath fellas, this is the Serie A after all and these things happen. Until then, lets only look at the positives from what can come from this.


Forza Milan.
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Post by Forza Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:33 am

Arquitecto wrote:Well I've cooled down after swallowing the pill of losing the first Milan Derby since Allegri has taken the helm. Frankly, I'm upset and disappointed, but I knew this had to come some day.

Lets start off, It is arguable that maxed should have played the 4-2-3-1 instead of the 4-1-2-1-2 diamond which also dynamically changed often into a 4-3-1-2 as against teams like Inter who played 3 DMs and 1 quality wingers, it simply did not work and stifled us.

Starting off with the players:

Abate: I have no complaint over considering he was solid as a rock through the whole match as one mistake (as upsetting as this is) is not something you can truly condemn him for and especially coming off a 2 week injury right into a game.

Nesta-Silva: As usual, superb partnership and didn't give Milito-Pazzo anything to sniff as their goal came through a mistake in which Milito capitalized on as aside from that Inter had no true chances.

Zambrotta: This is where Allegri should have played Mexes as for all the tactical intelligence and guile of Zambro, he severely lacks pace and we needed our FBs to bomb forward as Mexes despite being a CB would have surely offered a better attacking threat as Zambro was to busy handling the threat of Zanetti who was Inter's best player last night.

Van Bommel: One of our best players last night as his discipline was immense along with his excellent chance to hit the bar. No complaints here as its a commendable performance.

Nocerino: Disappointed? No. Simply because I have said time and time again Nocerino's goalscoring form must not be mistaken for. Once his goals dry up people will see his somewhat limited capabilities. I don't like how he looks lost all to often along with the fact that he is not tenacious enough on the tackle. I provides workrate in attack yet its not enough, and his defense is questionable. Not starting quality for me and must be an impact sub.

Prince: Quite obvious Prince is not anymore a Mezzalla as he has clearly adapted to his trequartista role and the LCM position does not suit him. More on this later.

Urby: Lets start off with this, Urby NEVER WAS NEEDED for Milan. Galliani did not do his research when buying him. Why? We bought him to solve our LB problems yet he did not realize Urby was a left back who converted to winger simply cause he could not defend, which leaves him only to play him as a winger. If we played a winger system then he would thrive as he IS actually a solid and tricky winger. But playing him as TQ MUST stop as he lacks the creativity and is too one-footed to play there as even the LCM would have suited him better. This decision cost us.

Pato: He set up 2 decent attacks with his quality passing today but as a whole he was largely disappointing. It seems to be more and more true that this relationship with the unproffessional Barbara has given him a sense of pride that he is untouchable, hence his stupid move to make his frustration with Allegri public. He is lacking the work rate, does not seemed focused and clearly is 1/10th of the player we are used to seeing. We know the days when Pato is training hard and looks determined he scores like nothing. He needs to work harder and improve his tactical sense of the game to combine with Ibra or take the bench role. Very disappointed.

Ibra: Not so disappointed here simply because I knew from the start he would have a mountain to climb. Why? Only because Pato really does not give him hope to combine and that Samuel and Lucio BOTH seemed to focus especially on him as Samuel in particular HEAVILY marked him. Ibra has in the past actually has beaten better CBs and even done so against 2 markers, but the fact was our team increasingly relied on him and he produced admirably for how much pressure there was on him from Inter.


Here is the thing, it wasn't a disastrous game by any means as aside from Allegri's selection his in depth/on-field tactics were superb, yet a mistake and positioning of his players cost him his creativity.

His sub moves were superb when he took of Zambro and added Robinho where Urby switched to LB.

Yet, he should have started off this formation:

4-3-1-2

Abate-Nesta-Silva-Mexes

Seedorf-MvB-Nocerino

KPB
Ibra-Robinho

Another variation of this could have been with Urby as LCM instead of Nocerino or a varied formation in the form of Allegri's diamond.


I already spoke about Mexes starting, but Seedorf should have started. Why? I understand his lack of pace would cost us but in the absence of the vital aqualani his presence, experience and creativity was sorely missed earlier on to unlock the defense.


KPB SHOULD HAVE played the TQ simply because he has adapted so well there now and his energy, ball playing skill, decision making and ultimately chemistry with Ibra-Robinho was needed as Urby was sorely average and one-footed there.

What Allegri actually was planning was to simply for our fullbacks to provide the width and attack as both Abate and Zambro did not provide us and this is where our formation was rendered obsolete as he was too late to change the system until the goal came against us.

We looked essentially toothless in building our attacks and did not create enough. Yes there were chances with Pato, KPB, MvB and the unbelievably shitty finisher Robinho missing 2 CHANCES. But since the fullbacks did not do there attacking job, with the absence of Aquilani , Seedorf coming on too late, No chemistry up front, bad role placement of the players accumulated into micro-details with eventually cost our attack in the end.

Do I have to mention that Inter played a SUPERB GAME? Yes they parked the bus after the goal yet their tactical positioning and intelligence to shut us out was too much. Which is essentially why mid way through the game I did not see us score. Not because we looked daft of creativity, but it looked just like that Mourinho-esque wall that you look at and don't see anyone getting through. Inter had nothing to lose at all and this is another factor which put the pressure on us along with their given resurgence and momentum. This is why I had an extremely bad feeling about todays match. They wanted this game FAR more than us.

In the end, I hope Allegri learned from his small but costly mistakes because as a whole he was tactically astute today, but not in the areas of role of the players. Hopefully he will stick to what works best.

This essentially is a calling to the thick headed Galliani who refuses to buy us a proper mid along with a LB who can actually defend and attack. We need the depth in that area as otherwise we can forget Arsenal and the Scudetto will fade away.

I've said this time and time again that our midfield is extremely poor. Either to slow and not enough creativity. Someone like Montolivo or a class 10 role player is vital. I don't even have to mention the LB area.

Worst thing is we did not capitalize on Juve's dropped points but this is also a positive despite us being a point down. Yes the schedule will be tougher now but Allegri has ALWAYS bounced back well from defeats of such magnitude.

-Bright spots are that El-Sharawaay for his 8 minutes was superb and now I pray that he competes with Pato to give the latter something to think about.

-This wasn't our best squad in any aspect

-Hopefully Jan signings are made and if so, it can produce wonders to our limitations.

-Mistakes learned and how it can be built upon.


In the end, I highly admire the attitude shown here by the Milan posters as it has been very mature and intelligent after the win. BM3 said we can get through this loss if we stick together and I couldn't be more positive about this.

Until then, breath fellas, this is the Serie A after all and these things happen. Until then, lets only look at the positives from what can come from this.


Forza Milan.

I can't disagree with anything here. Disappointing loss, but we're still only a point behind Juve.

One thing I will add is that our squad still lacks some depth for the big games. Yes, we can fill the team when we have to beat the mid-table Serie A teams, but when we need some reinforcements for the artillery, we are lacking in the midfield and at LB. Everyone here knows this has been a problem since Maldini retired and I'm sure that Galliani and Berlusconi know too... but will they do anything about it?

Urby is not an option and it is time for an investment if we are going to be serious about outlasting the other teams in the title race as well as getting a result against Arsenal. I think that if we can overcome this round of 16 hurdle, we have the quality to go the whole way in Europe if we peak at the right time. But it all depends on January for any of this to happen, it's going to be a real struggle without support from the 'Bunga Bunga' fund...

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Post by Adit Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:29 am

A very interesting tactical battle – which Ranieri got right. Alvarez wasn’t hugely influential on the left, but Ranieri correctly decided he could play with three deeper midfielders picking up Milan’s three attacking midfielders, have one player breaking forward from midfield, and play on the break. The risks were leaving Zambrotta and van Bommel free – and the latter was the width of a crossbar away from giving Milan the lead – but that, a 25-yard effort, was the only time Milan seriously threatened Julio Cesar. Ranieri can consider his strategy a success.

Milan, on the other hand, played extremely poorly. The line-up looked highly functional on paper – a strike partnership which has never quite clicked, with a fairly average trequartista and two runners either side of the diamond. They lack guile, and they depend too much on power in midfield, plus individual brilliance upfront.

The strange thing about Milan is that they are the complete opposite of the side they were in the mid 2000s, which contained a midfield full of playmakers, and was more successful against Europe’s elite (three European Cup finals) than against Serie A as a whole (one league title).

Now, they have a midfield that is highly powerful and functional rather than intelligent. Demolishing bottom half clubs shouldn’t be a problem, but against top quality opponents, they need something a little cleverer. It’s summed up by their record in Serie A so far – against the top six they’re P5 W0 D2 L3, against everyone else they’re P13 W11 D2 L0. They are currently the best example imaginable of flat-track bullies.
well said there
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:44 am

Adit wrote:
A very interesting tactical battle – which Ranieri got right. Alvarez wasn’t hugely influential on the left, but Ranieri correctly decided he could play with three deeper midfielders picking up Milan’s three attacking midfielders, have one player breaking forward from midfield, and play on the break. The risks were leaving Zambrotta and van Bommel free – and the latter was the width of a crossbar away from giving Milan the lead – but that, a 25-yard effort, was the only time Milan seriously threatened Julio Cesar. Ranieri can consider his strategy a success.

Milan, on the other hand, played extremely poorly. The line-up looked highly functional on paper – a strike partnership which has never quite clicked, with a fairly average trequartista and two runners either side of the diamond. They lack guile, and they depend too much on power in midfield, plus individual brilliance upfront.

The strange thing about Milan is that they are the complete opposite of the side they were in the mid 2000s, which contained a midfield full of playmakers, and was more successful against Europe’s elite (three European Cup finals) than against Serie A as a whole (one league title).

Now, they have a midfield that is highly powerful and functional rather than intelligent. Demolishing bottom half clubs shouldn’t be a problem, but against top quality opponents, they need something a little cleverer. It’s summed up by their record in Serie A so far – against the top six they’re P5 W0 D2 L3, against everyone else they’re P13 W11 D2 L0. They are currently the best example imaginable of flat-track bullies.
well said there


Where is this from? Sounds like another ignorant Zonal marking article which ignores all the factors and outliers going into it. The author also forgets to mention the 2 chances Robinho missed along with 1 by Pato.

He also forgets to mention how Allegri switched his original formation thats been working for us, along with the fact that Seedorf and Aquilaini who are 2 of our most creative midfielders were not playing, KPB wasn't in his position, Robinho came late, Urby doesn't play TQ for us, Pato doesn't partner Ibra, and that the team has already been proven well enough against top clubs.


Funny how he also compares us with Carletto's Milan considering we had players of a much higher caliber as Allegri has done a superb job of utilizing these players as best as he can.

Very typical of ZM to accumulate all conclusions through one game. And once again, the amount of external factors and outliers he has missed is embarrassing.
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Post by nichabr Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:56 pm

Ganso wrote:seriously though,we need to find a way to counter vibe and his sorcery....

gotta make the thread before vibe does in the inter forum Twisted Evil
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Post by Dante Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:02 pm

What worried me the most in that ZM analysis was something said at the end .

We have failed miserably against big clubs this season in Serie A. But we are having fun with the rest of the teams . here ;

It’s summed up by their record in Serie A so far – against the top six they’re P5 W0 D2 L3, against everyone else they’re P13 W11 D2 L0. They are currently the best example imaginable of flat-track bullies.

well , this is the way to win any league.
On the other hand , we ll never win the Champions League like that. Come at me now Razz

Jokes aside , this is really something to worry about.. Napoli and Juventus matches were failures. Last night wasn't at all a failure , but the result was. Still , we have trouble against teams with big calibre like ours and i would like to hear more opinions on why , because i have lost almost the entire 1st part and i can't have a fair opinion.
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Post by nichabr Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:16 pm

Dante13 wrote:What worried me the most in that ZM analysis was something said at the end .

We have failed miserably against big clubs this season in Serie A. But we are having fun with the rest of the teams . here ;

It’s summed up by their record in Serie A so far – against the top six they’re P5 W0 D2 L3, against everyone else they’re P13 W11 D2 L0. They are currently the best example imaginable of flat-track bullies.

well , this is the way to win any league.
On the other hand , we ll never win the Champions League like that. Come at me now Razz

Jokes aside , this is really something to worry about.. Napoli and Juventus matches were failures. Last night wasn't at all a failure , but the result was. Still , we have trouble against teams with big calibre like ours and i would like to hear more opinions on why , because i have lost almost the entire 1st part and i can't have a fair opinion.

Napoli won from 3 first time shots from Cavani ffs not much we could have done there in all honesty..but against Juve we lost from mistakes which is very worrying because somehow the team is less confident as champions compared to last season when we weren't....very strange..
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:22 pm

Dante13 wrote:What worried me the most in that ZM analysis was something said at the end .

We have failed miserably against big clubs this season in Serie A. But we are having fun with the rest of the teams . here ;

It’s summed up by their record in Serie A so far – against the top six they’re P5 W0 D2 L3, against everyone else they’re P13 W11 D2 L0. They are currently the best example imaginable of flat-track bullies.

well , this is the way to win any league.
On the other hand , we ll never win the Champions League like that. Come at me now Razz

Jokes aside , this is really something to worry about.. Napoli and Juventus matches were failures. Last night wasn't at all a failure , but the result was. Still , we have trouble against teams with big calibre like ours and i would like to hear more opinions on why , because i have lost almost the entire 1st part and i can't have a fair opinion.

Easy, what do you think is the difference between Milan before the Juve match and the one after?

I'm surprised you haven't picked this point up Dante (maybe you have) as this can be forgiven given your stint with the Army and lack of time to follow Milan.

We faced Napoli, Udinese, Lazio, and of course, Juve all before that specified match.

Here are the factors:

1. The match against Lazio was a Serie A opener were all the teams and players are unfit and frankly, results usually can go either way as plus Allegri tried a new formation along with injuries and other factors took hold. The match ended 2-2 with an impressive Milan comeback in the end. The match against Udinese was one of our lesser impressive matches with us playing very slow possession and passing between the CBs, devoid of creativity yet, dominated nonetheless, but if you can remember there were missed chances and Abbiati's HORRIBLE blunder which made it end 1-1. Napoli ended 3-1 with a Cavani hatrick. But then again we played against the tactics we did against them last year as our team was still in its experimental form with us playing 4-3-3 that match and it being in the San Paolo is not cakewalk at all.Juve? It was simply the worst match we have played since Allegri came in.

Whats the difference? After the Juve match Allegri switched back into a custom 4-3-1-2 which is dynamic enough to frequently change into a 4-1-2-1-2 diamond. But the biggest change was the teams urgency to press in defense, offense and of course, keeping the ball on the ground far more than before. Fullbacks also given more urgency to provide width, MvB playing an almost sweeper role, Nocerino being a revelation (of sorts) and adapting while Aquilani found his comfortable position under Allegri while being back up by Abate. Many minor tactics were also changed in passes patterns, overlapping, and of course, a noticeable increase in our in box composure.

See our record after the Juve match. Its fantastic.... hence why Fadi isn't as frequent anymore.

Conclusively, our system retained its core after that match, but was substantially revamped.

Champions League is something Allegri knows is not realistic atm and which is why he is looking at the bigger picture rather than micromanaging along with his discreet frustrations with this squads lack of depth through his words.

Therefore, once again I criticize ZM for looking at numbers and stats as if they tell the whole story without looking much into the details. As usual.... they tend to do that.

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Post by Dante Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:43 pm

I told you mate , i have not seen more than 4-5 Milan matches already..

The games with Barcelona , Napoli Juventus and Inter. that's about it . my picture of Milan is a bit worrying at the moment.

Seriously now , other factors always play a big role , but the result is the case here. With the players we have and from what i ve seen when we played Barcelona , well , scoring one goal against Inter shouldn't be a problem. I have faith in Milan as always but things must get better from now on.

Although strangely i am satisfied from the players yesterday and Max , we should do better because we can.
One last thing. Pato - Ibra doesn't work isn't an excuse. For their calibre , for their money , for playing at Milan , for their abilities , shouldn't be an excuse or an issue.

They should make it work , because Cassano is out for months and Robinho can't score to save his life . It's evident it doesn't matter against less dynamic range teams , but when it comes to the big stage it does.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:55 pm

Dante13 wrote:I told you mate , i have not seen more than 4-5 Milan matches already..

The games with Barcelona , Napoli Juventus and Inter. that's about it . my picture of Milan is a bit worrying at the moment.

Seriously now , other factors always play a big role , but the result is the case here. With the players we have and from what i ve seen when we played Barcelona , well , scoring one goal against Inter shouldn't be a problem. I have faith in Milan as always but things must get better from now on.

Although strangely i am satisfied from the players yesterday and Max , we should do better because we can.
One last thing. Pato - Ibra doesn't work isn't an excuse. For their calibre , for their money , for playing at Milan , for their abilities , shouldn't be an excuse or an issue.

They should make it work , because Cassano is out for months and Robinho can't score to save his life . It's evident it doesn't matter against less dynamic range teams , but when it comes to the big stage it does.

Thats what I was thinking based on your frequency of the forums. Good to have you back though.

As for your satisfaction on yesterday, you are completely right.

Pato-Ibra? Strangely enough I've actually seen it work in bigger games than the small ones. Something to think about.

But the fact is we score simply because our midfield is more of a defensive cover than an attacking as the true magic to score actually goes on within the box to compensate for the lack of midfield service and pace. This is why we are so composed within the box and controlled within tight spaces. So if you think about it, the chemistry between Pato and Ibra is far far more vital than how you may put it considering our midfield isn't strong enough to consistently create and deliver.

Football essentially is a game of chance and going against the odds in a space of 90 minutes, the lack of chemistry between them essentially numbers our chances of scoring within that space. The fault is more down to Pato if anything as he needs to link up better and add more tactical positioning to his game as you mentioned this yourself.

Keep in mind when I mentioned how important our play within the box really is and especially considering our mid is weak.

This is why some Milan fans want Robinho in as for all his missed finishes, his passing, dynamism, creativity, and chemistry effectively increases our chances of scoring while also bring our midfield into play with his movement to open spaces.

I feel a Pa-Ro-Ibra partnership always worked well as I'm not suggesting this but it did well against bigger teams as Pato then has someone to truly play off with along with having a link up outlet in the form of Robinho to run into balls and score.

Also keep in mind Ibra's vision and creativity and too some extent, his goal scoring also thrives when he is partnered with a high work rate forward, and Pato simply does not work enough.

This is why I felt Tevez would have added much to our front flank

Also, as I mentioned in the Mercato thread, its down especially to how bad Pato's form and confidence, and work rate is atm which is detrimental to the overall end product of our front line.
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Post by djellisdee Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:35 pm

Good game chaps, it was a tight one :bball:
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Post by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:16 pm

i agree everyone s thoughts on pato problems or ibra problems or robinho problems. its evident that the communication and chemistry between our forwards are not working well or efficient enough. pato form declining or injury confidence issues, ibra being too much solo player or static, or robinho's hideous finishes, whatever it is, problem is there, we all agree and its down to allegri now to understand this and fix this because now that first half of the season is over, second half of the season becomes ever so crucial and we need these forwards understanding their differences and making ammends along with coach. its allegri responsibility to sort this out, and if he doesnt no one does. i dont see how ibra pato or robinho despite realizing their differences could sort themselves out.

i feel ur frustation because loosing to our sworn rivals always hurts, but yesterdays showing was also a positive and gutsy one. actually i was fearing that with aquilani loss i feared so much that allegri might put ambrosini van bommel and nocerino together in all defensive midfield lineup that would destroy us, but no he put boateng back in aquilani place, emanuelson playing as AM even though he wasnt that effective, i thought players a team apart from those forward lineup did pretty good. and lets not forget just like inter, we had clear cut chances too, but we didnt take it. also some misfortune and luck involved, abate mistake made a difference but nevertheless i m proud of him ... like i said in previous post he did more good than bad with countless interceptions. and abate apologized for his mistake.

had our team played like the game against juve i would have been absolutely furious. but we played pretty good with aquilani out, with seedorf abate half fit, with thiago silva almost ruled out. ok inter won appreciation goes to zanetti. but now the real important season begins and i hope we can be strong and get this forward issues sorted out and come strong..

my only fear is we dont repeat same episode as the ones against tottenham, solid as a team but piss poor when it comes to those three, robinho pato ibra with their chemistry. i just hope by febuary this problem is cleared up because we dont want to see this happening again with arsenal.

we will be meeting juventus and inter again so we need to come back doing our homework, and face them with same attitude and determination we showed yesterday.


i agree to some of u, that pato hasnt been himself, infact he has declined a lot, but his recent statement, after PSG negotiation went bust, that he said he wants to win more with milan, gives me second thought to put complete faith in pato once more.

there is lot of things to be fixed regarding, our forwards, the LB issues, or ageing midfields... hope allegri galliani can come up with good solution.

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