Re: Luis Suarez Banned for 8 Premier League Games

by RedOranje Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:57 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
RedOranje wrote:You've ignored several parts of the case, though I see other posters agree as it makes the case simple for those who don't wish to actually follow the case closely.
Could you name these (or refer to a post#, I'm not reading 28 pages)? As you correctly pointed out, I haven't followed the case closely

First and foremost, it is simply Evra's word against that of Suarez. This is Patrice Evra, who has a history of making such claims without evidence.

Second, the FA have stated that they will release "written reasons" rather than evidence and allowed a full appeal... were the evidence strong enough there would be no need. As such the Association as a whole must not believe the "negrito" term to be as black and white as is being portrayed and are willing to hear the argument for the fact that it does not hold racist connotations.

Next, by the accounts provided, Evra insulted Suarez based on his nationality first. Evra is also aware that "negrito/negro" is not a racist term in most South American countries as he has played with players from those nations on his own club and, according to several reports, they have used the term as a term of endearment for him in the past.

Finally: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ferguson-stands-up-for-schmeichel-1280049.html

Charges against Schmeichel were dropped as there was no evidence and they could not justify punishment for based on a player's word.

by Le Samourai Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:01 am

RedOranje wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
RedOranje wrote:You've ignored several parts of the case, though I see other posters agree as it makes the case simple for those who don't wish to actually follow the case closely.
Could you name these (or refer to a post#, I'm not reading 28 pages)? As you correctly pointed out, I haven't followed the case closely
First and foremost, it is simply Evra's word against that of Suarez. This is Patrice Evra, who has a history of making such claims without evidence.

Second, the FA have stated that they will release "written reasons" rather than evidence and allowed a full appeal... were the evidence strong enough there would be no need. As such the Association as a whole must not believe the "negrito" term to be as black and white as is being portrayed and are willing to hear the argument for the fact that it does not hold racist connotations.

Next, by the accounts provided, Evra insulted Suarez based on his nationality first. Evra is also aware that "negrito/negro" is not a racist term in most South American countries as he has played with players from those nations on his own club and, according to several reports, they have used the term as a term of endearment for him in the past.

Finally: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ferguson-stands-up-for-schmeichel-1280049.html

Charges against Schmeichel were dropped as there was no evidence and they could not justify punishment for based on a player's word.

Luis Suarez Banned for 8 Premier League Games - Page 21 Bow

Why couldn't you arrive sooner. dat article :bow:

by poolsupporter Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:05 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I haven't read the 28 pages of this thread so I will just come in with my main points:

-Negrito is not a racial slur in Rioplatense spanish, and can be used in an affectionate way
-It's doubtful that Suarez meant it in an affectionate way though, and in all likelihood he used it as an insult
-Regardless of the cultural context, the phrase was not spoken in Uruguay, so the cultural context argument is void.
-Suarez is not racist. He was merely insulting someone. There's a difference.
-I am from Argentina but study in the US, I don't go around calling people negrito because I am aware of how it would be interpreted, and so should Suarez.
-It's possible that Suarez was not aware of the negative connotation associated with the word since he has spent so little time in England, although this is not likely.
-If this were the case Suarez should be playing the ignorance card, not the cultural context card.
-Regardless, Suarez was wrong to do it in England. 8 matches is excessive though.

Had he been aware of the consequences of using that word, I believe he would have kept his mouth shut and won the case as there would have been no proof. However, he claimed he used the word as he believed there was nothing wrong with that.

by JAY-Z Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:15 am

Liverpool are screwed.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:19 am

RedOranje wrote:First and foremost, it is simply Evra's word against that of Suarez. This is Patrice Evra, who has a history of making such claims without evidence.

Second, the FA have stated that they will release "written reasons" rather than evidence and allowed a full appeal... were the evidence strong enough there would be no need. As such the Association as a whole must not believe the "negrito" term to be as black and white as is being portrayed and are willing to hear the argument for the fact that it does not hold racist connotations.

Next, by the accounts provided, Evra insulted Suarez based on his nationality first. Evra is also aware that "negrito/negro" is not a racist term in most South American countries as he has played with players from those nations on his own club and, according to several reports, they have used the term as a term of endearment for him in the past.

Finally: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ferguson-stands-up-for-schmeichel-1280049.html

Charges against Schmeichel were dropped as there was no evidence and they could not justify punishment for based on a player's word.

Your arguments seem to be discussing more the legality of the punishment than the act itself. The FA may be acting without proper evidence, Evra might have insulted Suarez' nationality (and should be processed as well), and there might be precedent for this kind of action to be not punishable for lack of evidence. That being said, it doesn't change what Suarez did...

by Guest Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:20 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I haven't read the 28 pages of this thread so I will just come in with my main points:

-Negrito is not a racial slur in Rioplatense spanish, and can be used in an affectionate way
-It's doubtful that Suarez meant it in an affectionate way though, and in all likelihood he used it as an insult
-Regardless of the cultural context, the phrase was not spoken in Uruguay, so the cultural context argument is void.
-Suarez is not racist. He was merely insulting someone. There's a difference.
-I am from Argentina but study in the US, I don't go around calling people negrito because I am aware of how it would be interpreted, and so should Suarez.
-It's possible that Suarez was not aware of the negative connotation associated with the word since he has spent so little time in England, although this is not likely.
-If this were the case Suarez should be playing the ignorance card, not the cultural context card.
-Regardless, Suarez was wrong to do it in England. 8 matches is excessive though.

In my opinion there's a difference between you going around calling people "nergrito" in Boston and Suarez doing it on the pitch while playing an international game. They might not be teammates, but they're playing in the same league and are not strangers.

RedOranje wrote: The statement provided by Evra suggests that he first insulted Suarez due to his nationality, and that Suarez then replied with "Por que, negrito/negro." A statement that in Uruguay translates to "Why, mate?" Why has Evra then not been charged as well?

I wasn't aware of this before Red had posted. If this is the case, it seems to me like Suarez was involved in some friendly banter and Evra even "admits" to starting it :facepalm:

My thoughts on this issue are on page 24 if you had any interest.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:23 am

TetraHydroC 10 wrote:In my opinion there's a difference between you going around calling people "nergrito" in Boston and Suarez doing it on the pitch while playing an international game. They might not be teammates, but they're playing in the same league and are not strangers.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't say it to my black friends either, whom I do have a relationship with and (for the sake of argument) let's say they are familiar with the usage of the phrase in Rioplatense Spanish.

by Onyx Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:27 am

If Evra doesn't think Suarez is racist then what's the problem?

by El Chelsea Fuerte Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:28 am

mtfootball wrote:If Evra doesn't think Suarez is racist then what's the problem?

That's what I was wondering :lol!:

by Nirgal Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:30 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
TetraHydroC 10 wrote:In my opinion there's a difference between you going around calling people "nergrito" in Boston and Suarez doing it on the pitch while playing an international game. They might not be teammates, but they're playing in the same league and are not strangers.
Perhaps, but I wouldn't say it to my black friends either, whom I do have a relationship with and (for the sake of argument) let's say they are familiar with the usage of the phrase in Rioplatense Spanish.

If you were speaking spanish with them wouldn't you ever refer to any of them as negrito? (not as a reference to their race but as a pet name) maybe you don't use the word often, but you must know that many people use it very frequently as a pet name and it simply becomes a costume.

I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.

by RedOranje Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:33 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
RedOranje wrote:First and foremost, it is simply Evra's word against that of Suarez. This is Patrice Evra, who has a history of making such claims without evidence.

Second, the FA have stated that they will release "written reasons" rather than evidence and allowed a full appeal... were the evidence strong enough there would be no need. As such the Association as a whole must not believe the "negrito" term to be as black and white as is being portrayed and are willing to hear the argument for the fact that it does not hold racist connotations.

Next, by the accounts provided, Evra insulted Suarez based on his nationality first. Evra is also aware that "negrito/negro" is not a racist term in most South American countries as he has played with players from those nations on his own club and, according to several reports, they have used the term as a term of endearment for him in the past.

Finally: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/ferguson-stands-up-for-schmeichel-1280049.html

Charges against Schmeichel were dropped as there was no evidence and they could not justify punishment for based on a player's word.
Your arguments seem to be discussing more the legality of the punishment than the act itself. The FA may be acting without proper evidence, Evra might have insulted Suarez' nationality (and should be processed as well), and there might be precedent for this kind of action to be not punishable for lack of evidence. That being said, it doesn't change what Suarez did...

Suarez was charged based on insulting language... the punishment was (from my understanding) doubled as per the rules for comments that are meant to incite others. So by that the "negrito" only counts to double his ban... making it a side point to the fact that he was charged for, and punished by 4 game ban, for banter with Evra... who started it.

The legality is a huge factor, as it is what paints him as racist and brings this discussion up. Further, I did point out that Evra had previous involvement with the word "negrito" and knew of its actual intended purpose which, going by Evra's account, could easily have been "mate".

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:39 am

Nirgal wrote:If you were speaking spanish with them wouldn't you ever refer to any of them as negrito? (not as a reference to their race but as a pet name) maybe you don't use the word often, but you must know that many people use it very frequently as a pet name and it simply becomes a costume.

I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.

The thing is that it's all about the tone, the phrase itself does seem consistent with the normal use, but I find it hard to believe that a hot-head like Suarez would reply only like that after his nationality was insulted in the middle of a competitive match. I think either that phrase is wrong (or part of it is missing), or he said it some sort of harmful way. Granted, there's no evidence, but there's little evidence that's what he said too.

by Guest Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:42 am

For the record, I wasn't trying to say it was right or wrong, I just wanted to put it out there.

It's difficult to explain how my friends and I would interact and I'm certain some might get the wrong idea. Also, Suarez and Evra aren't friends and it was Evra who decided to bring nationality into it (I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right).

It's also difficult when you don't really know the people involved, I have no idea what these guys are actually like. This was on of those situations where I only felt comfortable giving my opinion on the word and how it can be interpreted.

Nirgal wrote:I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.

I couldn't have said it better myself, that's what I took from that dialogue.

This is quite similar to Kindergarten, one student starts trouble and tells the teacher when the other student reacts. :facepalm:

by elm_baraja_shaman Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:46 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
The thing is that it's all about the tone, the phrase itself does seem consistent with the normal use, but I find it hard to believe that a hot-head like Suarez would reply only like that after his nationality was insulted in the middle of a competitive match.

AMEN!

by Nirgal Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:53 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Nirgal wrote:If you were speaking spanish with them wouldn't you ever refer to any of them as negrito? (not as a reference to their race but as a pet name) maybe you don't use the word often, but you must know that many people use it very frequently as a pet name and it simply becomes a costume.

I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.
The thing is that it's all about the tone, the phrase itself does seem consistent with the normal use, but I find it hard to believe that a hot-head like Suarez would reply only like that after his nationality was insulted in the middle of a competitive match. I think either that phrase is wrong (or part of it is missing), or he said it some sort of harmful way. Granted, there's no evidence, but there's little evidence that's what he said too.

that's another weird thing. Bringing in to consideration that they were in a quarrel, that Suarez is hot-headed and that they were speaking spanish. Doesn't negrito seems far too much of an innocuos insult ? I mean even if he were to use the world literally as "little black man" it would be more like a way of teasing than actually responding agressively to an offensive remark. I would expect that he would say something worse.

Still, only especulation from my part.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:54 am

RedOranje wrote:Suarez was charged based on insulting language... the punishment was (from my understanding) doubled as per the rules for comments that are meant to incite others. So by that the "negrito" only counts to double his ban... making it a side point to the fact that he was charged for, and punished by 4 game ban, for banter with Evra... who started it.

The legality is a huge factor, as it is what paints him as racist and brings this discussion up. Further, I did point out that Evra had previous involvement with the word "negrito" and knew of its actual intended purpose which, going by Evra's account, could easily have been "mate".

It's just that it's not what I'm arguing. I think there's no evidence to really charge him on these "facts" and the fine is hugely excessive. I completely agree on these points. All I'm arguing for is that Suarez did not behave in a way that is correct.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:57 am

Nirgal wrote:that's another weird thing. Bringing in to consideration that they were in a quarrel, that Suarez is hot-headed and that they were speaking spanish. Doesn't negrito seems far too much of an innocuos insult ? I mean even if he were to use the world literally as "little black man" it would be more like a way of teasing than actually responding agressively to an offensive remark. I would expect that he would say something worse.

Still, only especulation from my part.

Completely agreed. Either Suarez said something more insulting than what is being reported or Evra is the queen of all drama queens. The former seems likelier to me, but I know the later would seem likelier to others. Like you said, it's all speculation at this point.

by elm_baraja_shaman Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:58 am

Nirgal wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Nirgal wrote:If you were speaking spanish with them wouldn't you ever refer to any of them as negrito? (not as a reference to their race but as a pet name) maybe you don't use the word often, but you must know that many people use it very frequently as a pet name and it simply becomes a costume.

I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.
The thing is that it's all about the tone, the phrase itself does seem consistent with the normal use, but I find it hard to believe that a hot-head like Suarez would reply only like that after his nationality was insulted in the middle of a competitive match. I think either that phrase is wrong (or part of it is missing), or he said it some sort of harmful way. Granted, there's no evidence, but there's little evidence that's what he said too.

that's another weird thing. Bringing in to consideration that they were in a quarrel, that Suarez is hot-headed and that they were speaking spanish. Doesn't negrito seems far too much of an innocuos insult ? I mean even if he were to use the world literally as "little black man" it would be more like a way of teasing than actually responding agressively to an offensive remark. I would expect that he would say something worse.

Still, only especulation from my part.

what I have been trying to put out all this while is

with ill intent or not Suarez should be banned, maybe the FA can reduce it to like 4 games, but he must serve his ban

with FIFA trying to rid the game of racism, he being unbanned will serve a bad name, what if every Spanish player runs around using "negrito" on a black player and say it is a casual thing?

next up they should deal with Terry too.

also they must investigate and find out if Evra truly insulted Suarez's nationality and punish him as well...

by Nirgal Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:10 am

elmystique wrote:
Nirgal wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Nirgal wrote:If you were speaking spanish with them wouldn't you ever refer to any of them as negrito? (not as a reference to their race but as a pet name) maybe you don't use the word often, but you must know that many people use it very frequently as a pet name and it simply becomes a costume.

I'm saying this because from what i read they were speaking at least partially in spanish. And Suarez specific phrase was ¿Por que, Negrito? which seems very consistent with using the word as a petname.
The thing is that it's all about the tone, the phrase itself does seem consistent with the normal use, but I find it hard to believe that a hot-head like Suarez would reply only like that after his nationality was insulted in the middle of a competitive match. I think either that phrase is wrong (or part of it is missing), or he said it some sort of harmful way. Granted, there's no evidence, but there's little evidence that's what he said too.

that's another weird thing. Bringing in to consideration that they were in a quarrel, that Suarez is hot-headed and that they were speaking spanish. Doesn't negrito seems far too much of an innocuos insult ? I mean even if he were to use the world literally as "little black man" it would be more like a way of teasing than actually responding agressively to an offensive remark. I would expect that he would say something worse.

Still, only especulation from my part.

what I have been trying to put out all this while is

with ill intent or not Suarez should be banned, maybe the FA can reduce it to like 4 games, but he must serve his ban

with FIFA trying to rid the game of racism, he being unbanned will serve a bad name, what if every Spanish player runs around using "negrito" on a black player and say it is a casual thing?

next up they should deal with Terry too.

also they must investigate and find out if Evra truly insulted Suarez's nationality and punish him as well...

I agree with racism being a serious issue that should be dealt apropiately.

But I don't really think this has any possibility of scalating to the point you are saying it could. Spanish speaking players will not start using that word frequently to discriminate since it's only rioplatense spanish speakers that can claim it's of frequent use and even if they decided to do it often the accusations of racism would become so pervasive that no one would be able to claim ignorance that the word is offensive in english and they would simply be punished.

And about the case itself, it just does not seem right to punish somone over racism when the FA and the accuser himself do not consider the accused to be racist simply to make an example of him.

Anyway, that is not what's happening either. He is being punished for insulting and his punishment has doubled for the insult to have racial connotation (even if agreed by the insulted player and FA it had not racist intentions)

by Sushi Master Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:59 am

"Negrito" is common all over Spanish speaking Latin American countries.

I am a 100% sure it has been used before by other players in Europe without punishment, and that Evra only got it because of the similarities between French and Spanish. He could have been taking dumps on his mother in French and Suarez wouldn't know. Vice versa. This sort of insults happen all the time and an 8 game suspension seems mighty excessive to me.

Nevermind to new players in new leagues who don't even know the local language. They surely get ripped a new one and no one cares.

If Eto'o can be insulted by a whole stadium and no actions were taken, or Marcelo mimed with monkey noises, nevermind all that shit that still happens, all this seems like such bullshit.

Wrong thing to say in a different culture and against a top player in a top team (face it, if Evra played for Wigan no one would give a shit), but is sure Evra milkeing the hell out of it.

by Swanhends Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:12 am

"500 replies and 29 pages, I wonder whats going on in this thread maybe I should take another lo-"

Luis Suarez Banned for 8 Premier League Games - Page 21 2cfa3qr

Luis Suarez Banned for 8 Premier League Games - Page 21 2cfa3qr

by FalcaoPunch Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:32 am

Let's just say around here I wouldn't just go up to black person and call him negrito.

by Sushi Master Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:36 am

ColoJunior wrote:Let's just say around here I wouldn't just go up to black person and call him negrito.

That is true, there's usually a level of confidence. In the heat of a football match with the usual banter and all I can definitely see it being said, though.

by Guest Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:45 am

ColoJunior wrote:Let's just say around here I wouldn't just go up to black person and call him negrito.

Suarez tries to pat evra on the back...
evra: don't touch me you south American

Suarez: Porque, negrito ?

that's the whole thing apparently....didn't evra initially claim it was said 10 times :facepalm:

This part also is very interesting.

We would also like to know when the FA intend to charge Patrice Evra with making abusive remarks to an opponent after he admitted himself in his evidence to insulting Luis Suarez in Spanish in the most objectionable of terms. Luis, to his credit, actually told the FA he had not heard the insult.

by RedOranje Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:26 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Nirgal wrote:that's another weird thing. Bringing in to consideration that they were in a quarrel, that Suarez is hot-headed and that they were speaking spanish. Doesn't negrito seems far too much of an innocuos insult ? I mean even if he were to use the world literally as "little black man" it would be more like a way of teasing than actually responding agressively to an offensive remark. I would expect that he would say something worse.

Still, only especulation from my part.
Completely agreed. Either Suarez said something more insulting than what is being reported or Evra is the queen of all drama queens. The former seems likelier to me, but I know the later would seem likelier to others. Like you said, it's all speculation at this point.

It's all speculation to you perhaps, but you still talk as though he did it and seem to assume he did. Others have made it quite clear they don't even give him the benefit of acknowledging it's speculation. They take it as fact.

Further, Whereas Suarez has black family members and no history or such comments, Evra DOES have a history of being, as you put it, "the queen of all drama queens."

Going back to your suggestion we are arguing different points, I agree: You are assuming he's actually done something wrong but that the punishment was harsh while I am arguing that such an act (with intent) was never actually committed... or at the very least proven, and that therefore the entire punishment is unjust. Your seeming assumption that Suarez did do such is a large part of the reason Liverpool are so up in arms about this... it gives Suarez a tag he will never be able to live down. One that will hurt him on and off the field and could very well hurt his career and the club's future.... all based on the word of a player with a history of making claims.

Your assumption of Suarez's wrongdoing without any evidence is what I'm arguing against.

ColoJunior wrote:Let's just say around here I wouldn't just go up to black person and call him negrito.

I'm sure you wouldn't us it in THE USA. I wouldn't do it in the US either; HOWEVER, I do not believe you would begrudge someone who had lived in the country less than a year using it on occasion.

by Guiltybystander Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:52 am

It's a travesty.

WHY ALWAYS SUAREZ? Sad

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