Is Ibra World Class?

This is a good time to test out the criteria which i liked in the definition of WC thread and see if people can actually come to a consensus. There is a debate going on in the Carroll thread about whether Ibra is WC which lead to this thread.

So the criteria is as follows,

1) Has Ibra been outstanding in his position? This is subjective and you have to use statistics, trophies won and your opinion about his impact on the pitch to answer this question.

2) Has he been outstanding consistently for a long period of time? We can take a minimum of 4 years for this criteria.

Please post your answers to this criteria too. That way people can see your opinions.

Lawlz, if he isnt, nobody is

YES.

You're using team success, i.e. trophies, as a main indicator of personal worth, i.e. being world class.

When evaluating a player, i use 3 main criteria:
- scope of his game
- pitch impact
- statistics

Statistically, Ibra fails for a CF. As I mentioned in the other thread, he's only scored 25 goals or more once in his career. As a AM, he has only hit the 10 assist mark once in his career (we're not talking CM here; final 1/3 AM).

He sits like a statue in the final 1/3 of the pitch and waits for the ball to get to him. He doesn't have great work rate and he never defends. So as far as pitch impact... as long as his team can cover him on defense and gets the ball to the final 1/3 consistently, he's effective. Otherwise, he has no impact.

Scope of his game is very good. He can pass, score and play well in the air.

In terms of consistency, he picks and chooses when he's going to give a good effort. He's very moody.

He has WC performances and WC talent. But he's not a WC player due to his own bad attitude.

sportsczy wrote:You're using team success, i.e. trophies, as a main indicator of personal worth, i.e. being world class.

When evaluating a player, i use 3 main criteria:
- scope of his game
- pitch impact
- statistics

Statistically, Ibra fails for a CF. As I mentioned in the other thread, he's only scored 25 goals or more once in his career. As a AM, he has only hit the 10 assist mark once in his career (we're not talking CM here; final 1/3 AM).

He sits like a statue in the final 1/3 of the pitch and waits for the ball to get to him. He doesn't have great work rate and he never defends.

In terms of consistency, he picks and chooses when he's going to give a good effort. He's very moody.

He has WC performances. But he's not a WC player.

Spot on +1

Absolutely.

Was a key player for each trophies he won.

Milito is wc, he used to score 20+ every year

Raul is not world class, his league stats are awful

DP is not world class, not many 20+ years

Grande_Milano wrote:Milito is wc, he used to score 20+ every year

Raul is not world class, his league stats are awful

DP is not world class, not many 20+ years

Milito has only scored 25 or more goals in his career once and is limited in terms of overall impact. Had one WC year though...

Raul... has scored 25+ 5 times in his career and a total of 350 goals. Plus his pitch impact is huge and he give you his all almost always. Definitely world class.

Del Piero always plays either SS or AM. He's never (or very rarely) the primary goalscorer. Yet, he scores plenty and impacts the game consistently. WC career. Several WC years.

Well, ADP isnt that of assist machine to be considered world class final passer

You contradicting yourself, listing 3 criterias, but choosing 1 aka stats for final judgement.

Ibrahimovic is very effective on pitch, participating and creating in most of team play

Yes he is a WC player.

Grande_Milano wrote:Well, ADP isnt that of assist machine to be considered world class final passer

You contradicting yourself, listing 3 criterias, but choosing 1 aka stats for final judgement.

Ibrahimovic is very effective on pitch, participating and creating in most of team play

Not at all. CFs and goaltenders have to be stat whores... it's their job. Stats are less important in other roles. Ibra is a CF. His stats are decent, but nothing great. So he can't be a WC CF.

I personally believe he is a WC player.

sportsczy wrote:You're using team success, i.e. trophies, as a main indicator of personal worth, i.e. being world class.

When evaluating a player, i use 3 main criteria:
- scope of his game
- pitch impact
- statistics

Statistically, Ibra fails for a CF. As I mentioned in the other thread, he's only scored 25 goals or more once in his career. As a AM, he has only hit the 10 assist mark once in his career (we're not talking CM here; final 1/3 AM).

He sits like a statue in the final 1/3 of the pitch and waits for the ball to get to him. He doesn't have great work rate and he never defends. So as far as pitch impact... as long as his team can cover him on defense and gets the ball to the final 1/3 consistently, he's effective. Otherwise, he has no impact.

Scope of his game is very good. He can pass, score and play well in the air.

In terms of consistency, he picks and chooses when he's going to give a good effort. He's very moody.

He has WC performances and WC talent. But he's not a WC player due to his own bad attitude.

You have very good points there.

sportsczy wrote:

Grande_Milano wrote:Well, ADP isnt that of assist machine to be considered world class final passer

You contradicting yourself, listing 3 criterias, but choosing 1 aka stats for final judgement.

Ibrahimovic is very effective on pitch, participating and creating in most of team play

Not at all. CFs and goaltenders have to be stat whores... it's their job. Stats are less important in other roles. Ibra is a CF. His stats are decent, but nothing great. So he can't be a WC CF.

WTF, you are saying stats are important, then throw them away.

Here is the list of world class forwards in today's game based on few seasons, stats, public opinion, etc:

Rooney
Higuain
Etoo
Villa
Gomez
Van Persie



If you think all of them better than Ibra, you are wrong

sportsczy wrote:You're using team success, i.e. trophies, as a main indicator of personal worth, i.e. being world class.

When evaluating a player, i use 3 main criteria:
- scope of his game
- pitch impact
- statistics

Statistically, Ibra fails for a CF. As I mentioned in the other thread, he's only scored 25 goals or more once in his career. As a AM, he has only hit the 10 assist mark once in his career (we're not talking CM here; final 1/3 AM).

He sits like a statue in the final 1/3 of the pitch and waits for the ball to get to him. He doesn't have great work rate and he never defends. So as far as pitch impact... as long as his team can cover him on defense and gets the ball to the final 1/3 consistently, he's effective. Otherwise, he has no impact.

Scope of his game is very good. He can pass, score and play well in the air.

In terms of consistency, he picks and chooses when he's going to give a good effort. He's very moody.

He has WC performances and WC talent. But he's not a WC player due to his own bad attitude.

OK the man they build the team around does not defend so he is not effective? If we go by that logic Ronaldo is borderline WC, if none covers for him he is useless. Doesn't defend. Not the best passer and sometimes refuses to pass. If he doesn't score, he is pretty much useless.

Also on what earth is 25+ goals not much? I didn't realise all strikers standards are 50 goals so they can match Messi and Ronaldo lmao. 30 goals for even a poacher is good, 25 is better. Also let's not ignore that Zlatan does operate as a AM aswell, not always the striker.

10 assists so what? ANYONE who has seen him knows he is a good final ball provider/passer. That is a FACT, statistics are not the ones who judge how good of a passer you're.

Ibra > any other striker out there except RvP (if no CR and Mehssi)

Grande_Milano wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

Grande_Milano wrote:Well, ADP isnt that of assist machine to be considered world class final passer

You contradicting yourself, listing 3 criterias, but choosing 1 aka stats for final judgement.

Ibrahimovic is very effective on pitch, participating and creating in most of team play

Not at all. CFs and goaltenders have to be stat whores... it's their job. Stats are less important in other roles. Ibra is a CF. His stats are decent, but nothing great. So he can't be a WC CF.

WTF, you are saying stats are important, then throw them away.

Here is the list of world class forwards in today's game based on few seasons, stats, public opinion, etc:

Rooney - is a SS/AM and plays with a CF in front of him. Not a CF.
Higuain - is a poaching CF. Is a WC CF this year and has the stats to prove it.
Etoo - WC CF and had the stats. Don't know currently.
Villa - awful current form. WC CF in the past and had the stats for it. Not currently though.
Gomez - again, has the stats for a CF and is a poacher.
Van Persie - Been WC for the past 10 months. Not WC before. Has the stats of a WC CF



If you think all of them better than Ibra, you are wrong

You say that i'm contradicting myself when in fact i'm being very consistent with what i'm saying lol. I'm saying that Ibra is not a WC CF because of his stats and that the CF position is 70% to 90% stats depending on whether you're a creative player or a poacher. It's not like his work rate or defensive ability help him.

My comments are in bold above.

omarish wrote:

sportsczy wrote:You're using team success, i.e. trophies, as a main indicator of personal worth, i.e. being world class.

When evaluating a player, i use 3 main criteria:
- scope of his game
- pitch impact
- statistics

Statistically, Ibra fails for a CF. As I mentioned in the other thread, he's only scored 25 goals or more once in his career. As a AM, he has only hit the 10 assist mark once in his career (we're not talking CM here; final 1/3 AM).

He sits like a statue in the final 1/3 of the pitch and waits for the ball to get to him. He doesn't have great work rate and he never defends. So as far as pitch impact... as long as his team can cover him on defense and gets the ball to the final 1/3 consistently, he's effective. Otherwise, he has no impact.

Scope of his game is very good. He can pass, score and play well in the air.

In terms of consistency, he picks and chooses when he's going to give a good effort. He's very moody.

He has WC performances and WC talent. But he's not a WC player due to his own bad attitude.

OK the man they build the team around does not defend so he is not effective? If we go by that logic Ronaldo is borderline WC, if none covers for him he is useless. Doesn't defend. Not the best passer and sometimes refuses to pass. If he doesn't score, he is pretty much useless.

Also on what earth is 25+ goals not much? I didn't realise all strikers standards are 50 goals so they can match Messi and Ronaldo lmao. 30 goals for even a poacher is good, 25 is better. Also let's not ignore that Zlatan does operate as a AM aswell, not always the striker.

10 assists so what? ANYONE who has seen him knows he is a good final ball provider/passer. That is a FACT, statistics are not the ones who judge how good of a passer you're.

Ibra > any other striker out there except RvP (if no CR and Mehssi)

Ronaldo scores 50 goals and dishes out 20 assists as a wing striker, not a CF. His numbers speak for themselves. If he was at 20 goals and 7 assists... then i'd look for other aspects to his game to see if it would compensate for his stat deficiency.

I didnt know wc status is acquired/lost in few months, this laughable. You have to work for it few years of great game, and you dont lose it in one season, let alone months.

List of strikers/forwards, without any specificality on CF not CF

Zlatan is a SS like Roonay. Hardly plays like a normal CF, while I can agree he is lazy he is WC and it shouldn't even be a debate if he is not and is...

Grande_Milano wrote:I didnt know wc status is acquired/lost in few months, this laughable. You have to work for it few years of great game, and you dont lose it in one season, let alone months.

List of strikers/forwards, without any specificality on CF not CF

WC career, WC game, currently WC and WC season are all different things to me.

Berbalol wc then

Grande_Milano wrote:Berbalol wc then

When he scored 7 in that game last year or something like that, he definitely had a WC game.

So currently, from some of the comments that i have seen

Is he outstanding in his position - Most say yes due to his contribution to the team's play in the final third of the pitch. Sportcszy says the main component of the contribution in the final third is the goals/assists, which Ibra lacks, and hence cannot be WC.

This is the point of contention now.

Is statistics the main component of the contribution by a CF or can we consider the pitch impact in the sense of his involvement in the team's attacking plays?

I personally think Ibra's involvement is great as his touches often free up space for his team mates and that is a major difference he brings to the team.

Sportczy, I am afraid you have gotten it wrong here.

Zlatan Ibra has since his Inter days been with a piss poor midfield.

His Barca days don't count as the style was polar opposite to his own personal style and preference along with the fact that his mental state was literally destroyed through the 2nd half with a fallout with pep, despite that he scored 21 goals and 10 assists and didn't even play anywhere near the games he could have for Barca due to one long injury and being benched.

Back to the point, his midfield with Inter was non-existent and involved him being crossed to almost all the time yet it did not work in the big stage since the defenders marked him in pairs, hence the plan rendered ineffective. He had a piss poor team around him in Inter and single-handedly won them titles.

The former point on his failure in the knock-outs is because his team relies on him so so much.

Yet for Milan the midfield is even worse as Pirlo was out for almost the whole season while Allegri played 3 DMs with minimal creativity leaving yet another burden for his team.

Team impact? Lets not forget he did not play CF at all to be frank for Inter and Milan as it was and is a number 10 role to this day for him.

His general play, superb passing and vision made his teams (aside from barca) play much better as ask the inter and Milan fans how much better the team was and is when he is on the field.

Its a known fact for watchers of Ibra that he ALWAYS drops even deeper after his first goal to create for the team and pull the strings. Which is why he only has 2 braces for his career in Milan yet almost always scores first and usually the most important goal.

For Sweden despite the common myth that they play better without him, ask the swedes here, as xabi of the forums will lay testament to what a maestro he is for his team in his AM/10 role.

Ibra's only problem is he slows the team down but there are two ways to look at it:

1. Ibra is lazy and doesn't perform when lazy.

or

2. He has a languid, layed back style in which he prefers to instill composure, calm and precision in the front flank with his cool head and brings everyone into play. His unselfish behavior has proven vital to his success as I've lost count how many goals he has given up for his team-mates to score.

Funny thing is have you heard of Robinho's finishing? AT LEAST 15 of his 20+ horrible finishes came from visionary passes from Zlatan.

Which is why Milan possess the ball far better with him in the field as our composure and clinical ability is statistically and visibly better with him.

The only advantage of not having him in the front flank is more pace but in the end, precision and composure wins all.

Milan aren't the one-man team they were last year in the first half of the season, but we are visibly weaker when he is absent.

One more thing, Ibra is NOT a CF and hasn't been since his Ajax days.

Frankly, the statement you gave that he has little impact for his team is near laughable.

The man is always thinking ahead as his vision within the box and eventually the midfield after his first goal is massive to our team and was for Inter.

I've yet to find a flaw in his game as I've yet to see bad first touch from him, he has perfect use of both feet, unquestionable passing and vision, heading has been recently proven to be near world class (see roma vs Milan). I could go on.

I don't need to tell you as fellow milan fans and others will tell you the same. The whole season and the last we were going bonkers on how much impact he creates for our team.

I'm from Sweden and Zlatan as a 10 > CF

That is a fact and Sweden does play better without him, unless he plays as a 10. As a CF he doesn't really care about Sweden and barely bothers moving