Re: Is Sergio Busquets world class?

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:10

In short, no. Long, no way in hell! eco smile

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:16

Yes he is......

People as usual are letting thier hate to cloud thier judgement.

by billionmillion Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:16

@

abun1024
what are you so sure?

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:18

BarcaKizz wrote:I understand your point... but if it wasn't for Barcelona's style, Xavi Hernandez would not be revered either. He is possibly one of the best midfielders of all time and yet if the team isn't played to his strengths he is less than half the player he can be.

I think this idea of 'world class' as a blanket definition is a bit silly because we all disagree on it so much. So many players in the wrong teams would fail...

I think many teams could accommodate Busquets' qualities quite easily. Pretty much any team other than teams requiring purely athletic/running DMs would want him. He wins the ball, he holds his position expertly and always offers that extra brick to the wall of defence, he rarely loses the ball or misplaces a pass and he is an excellent deep-lying playmaker in the sense that he always begins plays for his team from deep.

If you are playing hoofball or want someone who just runs about and is all action he is not your man, but he is still a marvellous player and I believe he is good enough to warrant this 'world class' title, whatever it may mean.

It isn't silly. Xavi is a Farca legend, no doubt about it. World class is a strict destinction between being a specialist and an outstanding allround footballer. I use your own club legends as an example, Rivaldo or Dinho, they could walk into any team and make them better. They were trully WC. Batistuta, R9 etc. are the other ones. They aren't just club legends, they're football legends eco smile

by BarcaKizz Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:19

So noone has answered my question still.

Who do you rate higher than Sergio Busquets as a DM?

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:20

If you go strictly by the definition, for me Suarez is more of a WC attacker than Messi or CR7 eco smile

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:23

BarcaKizz wrote:So noone has answered my question still.

Who do you rate higher than Sergio Busquets as a DM?

He isn't a DM to begin with, more like a defensive DLP. He is perfectly suited for possession game but leave him in an end to end game and he'll be exposed in no time. Mascherano, De Jong, M' Villa etc. in DM position. If you're talking as a mid then De Rossi, Piggy, Pirlo etc.
eco smile

by kiranr Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:27

And i thought we had gotten over the *Barcelona plays a certain way, hence their players cannot adapt to other styles* !

Stop assuming things and look at the basics of what they do. Busquets holds his position very well. That is the reason he was preferred over Yaya by Pep. He passes the ball very well and moves well in the midfield. He would improve the midfield of any team that he goes to.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:28

babun1024 wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:So noone has answered my question still.

Who do you rate higher than Sergio Busquets as a DM?
He isn't a DM to begin with, more like a defensive DLP. He is perfectly suited for possession game but leave him in an end to end game and he'll be exposed in no time. Mascherano, De Jong, M' Villa etc. in DM position. If you're talking as a mid then De Rossi, Piggy, Pirlo etc.

No he is'nt because he is'nt physical dont make him a DLP Laughing

He's a DM full stop and he's better than Mascherano, De Jong and M'Vila.......

Is Lucas a DLP now?

Is Cambiasso a DLP?

Your talking out of your ass eco smile

by kiranr Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:29

babun1024 wrote:
He isn't a DM to begin with, more like a defensive DLP. He is perfectly suited for possession game but leave him in an end to end game and he'll be exposed in no time. Mascherano, De Jong, M' Villa etc. in DM position. If you're talking as a mid then De Rossi, Piggy, Pirlo etc.

You are severely underrating tactical ability. Still, it is your opinion.

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:38

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:So noone has answered my question still.

Who do you rate higher than Sergio Busquets as a DM?
He isn't a DM to begin with, more like a defensive DLP. He is perfectly suited for possession game but leave him in an end to end game and he'll be exposed in no time. Mascherano, De Jong, M' Villa etc. in DM position. If you're talking as a mid then De Rossi, Piggy, Pirlo etc.

No he is'nt because he is'nt physical dont make him a DLP

He's a DM full stop and he's better than Mascherano, De Jong and M'Vila.......

Is Lucas a DLP now?

Is Cambiasso a DLP?

Your talking out of your ass

He is better because you say so? eco smile

Talking out of your... eco smile

Lucas and Cambiasso aren't DLPs. If you want to rate him as pure DM, he'll suck at any end to end team eco smile

For instance, replace Khedira with him in RM setup... eco smile

kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
He isn't a DM to begin with, more like a defensive DLP. He is perfectly suited for possession game but leave him in an end to end game and he'll be exposed in no time. Mascherano, De Jong, M' Villa etc. in DM position. If you're talking as a mid then De Rossi, Piggy, Pirlo etc.

You are severely underrating tactical ability. Still, it is your opinion.

I don't underestimate his tactical ability, he is brilliant. I just can't see him succeed in a team like RM or Man City eco smile

by BarcaKizz Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:40

babun1024 wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:I understand your point... but if it wasn't for Barcelona's style, Xavi Hernandez would not be revered either. He is possibly one of the best midfielders of all time and yet if the team isn't played to his strengths he is less than half the player he can be.

I think this idea of 'world class' as a blanket definition is a bit silly because we all disagree on it so much. So many players in the wrong teams would fail...

I think many teams could accommodate Busquets' qualities quite easily. Pretty much any team other than teams requiring purely athletic/running DMs would want him. He wins the ball, he holds his position expertly and always offers that extra brick to the wall of defence, he rarely loses the ball or misplaces a pass and he is an excellent deep-lying playmaker in the sense that he always begins plays for his team from deep.

If you are playing hoofball or want someone who just runs about and is all action he is not your man, but he is still a marvellous player and I believe he is good enough to warrant this 'world class' title, whatever it may mean.
It isn't silly. Xavi is a Farca legend, no doubt about it. World class is a strict destinction between being a specialist and an outstanding allround footballer. I use your own club legends as an example, Rivaldo or Dinho, they could walk into any team and make them better. They were trully WC. Batistuta, R9 etc. are the other ones. They aren't just club legends, they're football legends

...omfg...

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:42

No he has proven to be better.......

What has M'Vila, Mascherano and De Jong done which Busquets has'nt?

He is one of the most important players for Spain and Barcelona......

Both play alot worse when he does'nt play.....

Busquets-Alonso has proven to work so he would work much better than Khedira eco smile

And Madrid are not an end to end team they average over 60% possession eco smile

by BarcaKizz Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:48

Real Madrid is one of the only teams he wouldn't really work in that well, so if you're looking at that as your example thats silly. Ronaldo wouldn't be great at Barca either. Both players would be good, but would be much better elsewhere, doesn't mean they aren't WC, you could probably find this for any player.

Comparing him to Khedira is ridiculous too. Khedira has almost none of the qualities Busquets possesses. He's a running mid. Get Khedira to anchor a midfield on his own and he'd be hopeless, its just a completely different tactical setup. If you were to have him at RM you wouldn't do that though. What he would allow though, is both fullbacks to push up more and all other mids to push up more because he is always going to hold his position and he will always mop up in his area.

Similarly if you were to play him in a 2 man midfield, you would have him as the passer, sitting deep, cleaning up and winning the ball while distributing to attackers and a more mobile player who likes to get forward and can offer a cutting edge.

by BarcaKizz Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:51

Another question... people always say he'd get raped 1v1 against a WC CAM.... Which CAMs have been able to rape him? Seriously... Who?

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 13:56

BarcaKizz wrote:Real Madrid is one of the only teams he wouldn't really work in that well, so if you're looking at that as your example thats silly. Ronaldo wouldn't be great at Barca either. Both players would be good, but would be much better elsewhere, doesn't mean they aren't WC, you could probably find this for any player.

Comparing him to Khedira is ridiculous too. Khedira has almost none of the qualities Busquets possesses. He's a running mid. Get Khedira to anchor a midfield on his own and he'd be hopeless, its just a completely different tactical setup. If you were to have him at RM you wouldn't do that though. What he would allow though, is both fullbacks to push up more and all other mids to push up more because he is always going to hold his position and he will always mop up in his area.

Similarly if you were to play him in a 2 man midfield, you would have him as the passer, sitting deep, cleaning up and winning the ball while distributing to attackers and a more mobile player who likes to get forward and can offer a cutting edge.

babun1024 wrote:If you go strictly by the definition, for me Suarez is more of a WC attacker than Messi or CR7

by Babun Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:02

Immaculate_Mole wrote:No he has proven to be better.......

What has M'Vila, Mascherano and De Jong done which Busquets has'nt?

He is one of the most important players for Spain and Barcelona......

Both play alot worse when he does'nt play.....

Busquets-Alonso has proven to work so he would work much better than Khedira

And Madrid are not an end to end team they average over 60% possession

Nice try... eco smile

First, our 60% isn't comparable to Farca's 60%. We play a lot more intense/ direct =more running all game long. The two in the middle cover 11km of ground in average per game eco smile

In NT or Farca, they play tiki kaka but with different set ups, a much narrow one in Spain eco smile

Alonso and Biscuit working for NT? That's new to me... eco smile

by Adit Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:04

Busquet is world class at what he does,that is being an Anchor man.so yes he is.

But his creativity is so overrated though,also cant stand his diving, even got a yellow for diving against burger king (mehssi)/

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:08

babun1024 wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:No he has proven to be better.......

What has M'Vila, Mascherano and De Jong done which Busquets has'nt?

He is one of the most important players for Spain and Barcelona......

Both play alot worse when he does'nt play.....

Busquets-Alonso has proven to work so he would work much better than Khedira

And Madrid are not an end to end team they average over 60% possession
Nice try... First, our 60% isn't comparable to Farca's 60%. We play a lot more intense/ direct =more running all game long. The two in the middle cover 11km of ground in average per game In NT or Farca, they play tiki kaka but with different set ups, a much narrow one in Spain
Alonso and Biscuit working for NT? That's new to me...

I know Xavi runs about similar amount, so i would'nt suprise me if Busquets does aswell they are all constantly running so they can get the ball back because they are obsessed with as much possession as possible eco smile

Also Adit apart from Freecat who rates his creativity lol?

by the xcx Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:10

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:No he has proven to be better.......

What has M'Vila, Mascherano and De Jong done which Busquets has'nt?

He is one of the most important players for Spain and Barcelona......

Both play alot worse when he does'nt play.....

Busquets-Alonso has proven to work so he would work much better than Khedira

And Madrid are not an end to end team they average over 60% possession
Nice try... First, our 60% isn't comparable to Farca's 60%. We play a lot more intense/ direct =more running all game long. The two in the middle cover 11km of ground in average per game In NT or Farca, they play tiki kaka but with different set ups, a much narrow one in Spain
Alonso and Biscuit working for NT? That's new to me...

I know Xavi runs about similar amount, so i would'nt suprise me if Busquets does aswell they are all constantly running so they can get the ball back because they are obsessed with as much possession as possible

Also Adit apart from Freecat who rates his creativity lol?

I do, zero to none.

by paperbackwriter Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:11

kiranr wrote:And i thought we had gotten over the *Barcelona plays a certain way, hence their players cannot adapt to other styles* !

Stop assuming things and look at the basics of what they do. Busquets holds his position very well. That is the reason he was preferred over Yaya by Pep. He passes the ball very well and moves well in the midfield. He would improve the midfield of any team that he goes to.

Thing is that Busquets isn't defensively sound enough to be the only DM in another team than Barcelona since they rely on heavy pressuring from the whole team and fast recovery of the ball. With an average of 70 % possession. In a "normal" top team where 55 % possession is the norm he'd be quite average defensively. And he's not offensively/physically good enough to be one of the two more advanced players in a midfield trio. 4-4-2 is dead but he could be a decent player out of two in that formation. But still not world class, he wouldn't carry games as required of him in that formation.

by Highburied Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:18

Anchors usually break/stop the counters but tell me what is Barca CBs job?

Busquets is luckiest player I ever seen.

He cant make the bench at Arsenal.

by Raptorgunner Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:23

by kiranr Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:25

paperbackwriter wrote:

Thing is that Busquets isn't defensively sound enough to be the only DM in another team than Barcelona since they rely on heavy pressuring from the whole team and fast recovery of the ball. With an average of 70 % possession. In a "normal" top team where 55 % possession is the norm he'd be quite average defensively. And he's not offensively/physically good enough to be one of the two more advanced players in a midfield trio. 4-4-2 is dead but he could be a decent player out of two in that formation. But still not world class, he wouldn't carry games as required of him in that formation.

How do you know he would be average? Admittedly, he does not run very fast. However, he more than makes up for it in his positioning and reading of the game. He is an excellent DM and even if he is the lone DM, i think he has the tools to improve the midfield of a top team.

I have not seen him play in an offensive role. So i really cannot give my judgement there. Considering he is a good passer of the ball, he might be a good player. But that is just a guess and my bias of course.

by Blue Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 14:34

He is a *bleep*, but he is world class. I don't think it is even debatable.

by Guest Tue 29 Nov 2011 - 15:05

For me no

He works well in the system that is provided for him and he is lucky that is the same system Spain provides for him.

What is he world class at? Passing? Maybe, but that's too hard to determine in a side simply built around clocking up as many passes as possible especially in his own half and not going forward.

Tackling? Not really....Currently he sits at 96th in La Liga for average tackles per game with 2.2. The likes of Cazorla at number 70 with 2.5, Banega at 46 with 2.9 and even in his own team Mascherano and Alves sit much much higher. Mascherano alone is at 18 with 3.7.

Interceptions in midfield? Again not really....he currently sits at 107th in La Liga with an average of 2.5 per game. And again even Mascherano sits much higher at 80 with 2.9, then you have the likes of Toulalan who sits at 11th with 4.3.

Clearances in midfield? Again no he sits 124th in La Liga with that stat too with just 0.9 per game. Clearly beaten out by fellow team mates Alves, Adriano, Abidal and again Mascherano. Abidal and Mascherano themselves sitting inside the top 50.

He does not stand out at all in any of the offensive stats what so ever, yes even less so than his defensive ones.

One stat that does stand out in his favour though is he is yet to be dribbled by anyone thus far in La Liga this season which does say something about his abilities.

But back to his passing which if you look at his numbers you would think thats a strong point. But thats where you might be deceived.

Sitting in the position he does affords him the ability to keep a high pass rate as rarely are his passes played forward and when they are his long balls are not as much or as accurate as alot of Barcelona fans would have you believe. (Currently he has attempted 3 through balls all season with none hitting the mark and as for long balls he sits at 45th in La Liga behind the likes of fellow players Mascherano and Xavi and others like Ramos, Alonso, Banega and Cazorla etc etc)

He averages 70 odd passes per game which is alot but when you look at it that sits him 7th overall in La Liga behind the likes of Xavi, Xabi, Banega, Alves, Thiago and not very far in front of Mascherano. Not that good imo in the pass machine that is Barcelona.

Honestly in a team with 50/50 possession or in a true defensive fight where Barcelona or Spain do not control the game I believe he would severely struggle.

Just my thoughts

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