Re: If Mou wins CL and Liga this season.....

by EarlyPrototype Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:05 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I didn't say SAF didn't spend money, but he has done so at a much more controlled pace over a period of 25 years. He has obviously spent when needed, but he didn't buy an entire squad of superstars in 2 years.

Either way that's not to say Mou is not a genius, he obviously is. I'm just saying that things become easier with a blank cheque.

Mou didn't buy Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Alonso....etc. Very Happy

by izzy Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:07 pm

RealGunner wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:How many academy players currently start for United? Fletcher lol? not even a starter.

see PL season 95,96,99

Get with the times old man. Razz

But yeah, RG is right. Alan Hanen knows that aswell. Laughing

by EarlyPrototype Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:08 pm

RealGunner wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:How many academy players currently start for United? Fletcher lol? not even a starter.

see PL season 95,96,99

Yeh I am not sayin SAF relies only on bought players.

But atm everyone in the starting lineup has been bought. Nearly everyone on the bench as well.

by Mamad Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:09 pm

RealGunner wrote:
Zealous wrote:Who really rated Deco, Manish etc before Jose? Who really thought they would win the Champions League in 2004?

Who really rated Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Essien etc before Jose? Who really thought they would dominate the PL the way they did getting Chelsea their first ever major silverware?

Who really rated, Sneijder, Lucio, Milito before Jose? Who really thought Jose could win the Champions League with Inetr? Especially after they drew Barca in the semi's?

Money was spent but it was on players no body wanted or even players nobody could get the best out of. It was also with teams that were traditionally never considered favourite for top honours be it domestically or in Europe.

He is a master tactician, master manipulator and damn it he's the most colourful personality to grace football in years. Whether he is better than some of the other legendary managers is up for debate but he is surely up there IMO.

(Brain Clough > all though)

Lampard, Sniejder, Terry, Essien ? really ?

They weren't big stars before mou. they were great players but not big stars.

just look at Sneijder. under Mourinho he played 3x better than his time at Madrid.

by rwo power Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:20 pm

Swagg_Johnson wrote:
rwo power wrote:Mou can only coach teams where he can buy tons of players. He would never win anything with RWO. Fact.
No body will ever win anything with RWO..

Just you wait! "SuperMario" Basler took on the Herculean challenge to lead RWO from the depths of the 3rd league bottom to new heights! And we already won against Wehen Wiesbaden two weeks ago and battled for a scoreless draw away to Jahn Regensburg, the 2nd of the 3rd league who fields players like (Tobias) Schweinsteiger and (Jim-Patrick) Müller! Razz

by LeBéninois Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:25 pm

Too biaised , he is a great coach, top best but THE best ??? . Our sport is too beautiful , too class and too homogene to call one personn THe best ( player or manager) you can talk about top 3 or top5 ... Mourinho won greats things but he has the money for . someone like wenger is also great even without winning that much . look at the team he gets so josé is great but ....

by rwo power Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:32 pm

Bénin wrote:Too biaised , he is a great coach, top best but THE best ??? . Our sport is too beautiful , too class and too homogene to call one personn THe best ( player or manager) you can talk about top 3 or top5 ... Mourinho won greats things but he has the money for . someone like wenger is also great even without winning that much . look at the team he gets so josé is great but ....

Just my saying! For example, RWO has a 4 mio Euro budget for the whole club (players & staff) per year - I bet with such meagre foundations even Mou wouldn't be able to do wonders. If you have a famous team (and yeah, even Porto is famous in their league) or can spend millions of Euros it is comparatively easy to win stuff.

I wonder what Mou would have been able to do with Dortmund where the maximum money to buy a player is 5 mio Euros (and not more than 10 mio for a transfer window). If you have monetary restrictions like that, then the class of a coach really shows.

You can also look at national teams - I doubt Mou would be able to do much with a team where he can't just buy the players he wants to have because they just have not the right passport. ^^

by EarlyPrototype Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:34 pm

Who do you rate RWO? Wenger? SAF? Benitez? Redknapp(lol)?

Which manager in top flight football can win big trophies with RWO's budget?

by rwo power Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:36 pm

I rate Wenger, Kloppo, Tuchel etc - coaches who manage to make a lot out of very little.

I actually rate Del Bosque and Löw highly, too, but they have a big advantage compared to other NT coaches - they actually have a solid foundation of players. But Coaches who take a small team and do miracles with them have my absolutely admiration. Look at Rehagel with Greece, for example. They didn't play nicely, but they punched way over their weight.

by EarlyPrototype Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:39 pm

Well Wenger aint won nothing for last 7 years. Very Happy

Great manager though.

VDB could win the world cup with his bench.

Low also has an amazing set of players.

by Babun Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:47 pm

rwo power wrote:
Bénin wrote:Too biaised , he is a great coach, top best but THE best ??? . Our sport is too beautiful , too class and too homogene to call one personn THe best ( player or manager) you can talk about top 3 or top5 ... Mourinho won greats things but he has the money for . someone like wenger is also great even without winning that much . look at the team he gets so josé is great but ....
Just my saying! For example, RWO has a 4 mio Euro budget for the whole club (players & staff) per year - I bet with such meagre foundations even Mou wouldn't be able to do wonders. If you have a famous team (and yeah, even Porto is famous in their league) or can spend millions of Euros it is comparatively easy to win stuff.

I wonder what Mou would have been able to do with Dortmund where the maximum money to buy a player is 5 mio Euros (and not more than 10 mio for a transfer window). If you have monetary restrictions like that, then the class of a coach really shows.

You can also look at national teams - I doubt Mou would be able to do much with a team where he can't just buy the players he wants to have because they just have not the right passport. ^^

Your way of proving is a little bit outdated. Mou started out with a relatively small budget (Porto) and made a name with them. Winning a CL is harder than an EC eco smile

Why would he stay underdog all his career long to prove a point to the doubters? It doesn't make sense. He moved forward in his career. I don't get your logic or the people who say he spends a lot...
Second, in Chelsea, he brought their backbone with Ballack, Drogba and Essien because Abramowitch wanted to win something fast but didn't want to wait long. Was ist Mou's problem? Those signings, all of them were under 30 millions eco smile

Watch who Red Nose signed in the same period of time... eco smile

The other point, he brought his squad up to date in Chelsea and Inter, he didn't spend 100 millions each season eco smile

Again, you could consider Inter underdogs, he won with them nonthless a TREBLE eco smile

Each league plays a different style and requires different setups to win championships. He adapted to each of them in order to succeed eco smile

Adapting to the needs ot the team / league is what makes him a genius in my eyes, even more the fact the he succeeded so far ( trophies) eco smile

He'll be remembered as one of the greatest coaches ever eco smile

by rwo power Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:49 pm

@babun
But Porto were already a renowned team in Portugal.

Actually I don't rate managers only for the prizes they collect - I rate them for what they do with their players and what style they use - I always prefer coaches who actually develop youngers and bring the best out of them when they don't have a big name yet.

You can say Mou develops young players very well, too - and that he does indeed - but he already takes them in when they are already recognized as coming stars. I think it is far more fascinating to see a total no-name starting to shine than only putting the final polish to an already known and acclaimed player.

(Rehakles is a bit the odd one out for me - but I still remember how stunned I was when Greece actually won the Euro. More power to him for that! Very Happy

Denmark in 1992 was a similar fairytale, and coaches that make stuff like this possible will always have my admiration, too. Underdogs FTW)

by Zealous Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Well Aside from maybe one club Jose has never really managed a "small" club in his career. But the argument works both ways, any coach of a small team can just get by and never really feel any pressure to win anything if things go wrong. However the pressure to succeed is much higher with bigger clubs, meaning the margin for error is less.

Honestly I don't really like this argument since it implies that even if coaches like Sam Allerdyce coached big clubs they would still win. lol

Hell Allerdyce got Bolton to 5th once, does that mean he is an amazing coach?

Now guys like Brian Clough who could get second division sides winning European Cups a couple of years after he gets the job. That is something special.

by Babun Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:55 pm

rwo power wrote:@babun
But Porto were already a renowned team in Portugal.

Actually I don't rate managers only for the prizes they collect - I rate them for what they do with their players and what style they use - I always prefer coaches who actually develop youngers and bring the best out of them when they don't have a big name yet.

You can say Mou develops young players very well, too - and that he does indeed - but he already takes them in when they are already recognized as coming stars. I think it is far more fascinating to see a total no-name starting to shine than only putting the final polish to an already known and acclaimed player.

(Rehakles is a bit the odd one out for me - but I still remember how stunned I was when Greece actually won the Euro. More power to him for that! Denmark in 1992 was a similar fairytale, and coaches that make stuff like this possible will always have my admiration, too. Underdogs FTW)

Football isn't a RPG show. Teams play to win. You win by scoring more and conceding less. Mourinho adapted the styles he needed at each respective league. He is way more attacking in la liga if you ever watched Real Madrid with one of the youngest teams in the world eco smile

Again, your argument is lacking. He is a renowned coach, why should he go to a small club to prove his worth again? I don't get that mindset eco smile

Also, zeal is right, the pressure at top clubs isn't comparable to small/ mid table teams at all (see Bayern) eco smile

Regarding Wenger, he is a great coach but his defensive tactics were always suspicious eco smile

About Kloppo, as great as he is, he sucks at making the team go attack. His set up at Dortmund is all pressing and counter attack but when he has to dictate a game with his team to get a result actively ( CL, EL) he failed big time eco smile

Löw is somewhat like Wenger but as long as he doesn't win big matches I'm not going to give him more credit eco smile

Wenger>>>>>>>Löw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kloppo in my list eco smile

by Freeza Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 pm

rwo power wrote:@babun
But Porto were already a renowned team in Portugal.

Actually I don't rate managers only for the prizes they collect - I rate them for what they do with their players and what style they use - I always prefer coaches who actually develop youngers and bring the best out of them when they don't have a big name yet.

You can say Mou develops young players very well, too - and that he does indeed - but he already takes them in when they are already recognized as coming stars. I think it is far more fascinating to see a total no-name starting to shine than only putting the final polish to an already known and acclaimed player.

(Rehakles is a bit the odd one out for me - but I still remember how stunned I was when Greece actually won the Euro. More power to him for that! Denmark in 1992 was a similar fairytale, and coaches that make stuff like this possible will always have my admiration, too. Underdogs FTW)

TBH Richard Møller Nielsen was a douche, he didn't even qualify for the tournament with a team who was probably the best we ever had, it was all due to the players the victory in 1992, half a reserve team fighting for their lives and beating all the top nations in the process

by kiranr Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:07 pm

He is the most successful coach of recent times isn't he? Swallowing all my dislike for him, he is up there and he has a long way to go in his career, so he could achieve something special.

He is a smart man and works hard and he will do something that will cement his legacy in the future.

by che Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 pm

Zealous wrote:
Who really rated Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Essien etc before Jose? Who really thought they would dominate the PL the way they did getting Chelsea their first ever major silverware?

Who really rated, Sneijder, Lucio, Milito before Jose? Who really thought Jose could win the Champions League with Inetr? Especially after they drew Barca in the semi's?

wow, i did expect a lot of dick-riding in this thread but not to this extent

ranieri finished second with the squad mourinho had minus a few transfers ffs... claudio *bleep* ranieri

on topic, what rwo said... he can win shit when he gets to cherry pick players/has players cherry picked for him... good for him, doesn't make him the best coach ever

by Babun Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:16 pm

One more thing, the role of the coach is a bit overrated. A coach can't do more than he is allowed to by the players given to him. He doesn't play on the pitch, the players do. If the difference in quality is too high, the weaker team could only win by a lucky counter. It does require a basic setup but a coach can't do much more eco smile

The idea that any coach would succeed with a setup and players who don't have the ability is pure delusion. If you chose a setup you need players for it, a bit of luck and proper coaching to get a result against a much stronger team eco smile

That could be told about any coach. If the potential isn't there, he can't do much. Manchini is vastly underachieving in Europe after so many years with a side which possesses huge potential. He isn't a top manager in my list eco smile

by rwo power Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:26 pm

babun1024 wrote:Football isn't a RPG show.

Football for me is entertainment. So maybe you could say I consider it some kind of RPG. Razz

babun1024 wrote:Teams play to win. You win by scoring more and conceding less. Mourinho adapted the styles he needed at each respective league. He is way more attacking in la liga if you ever watched Real Madrid with one of the youngest teams in the world

Real may have young players, but they were already considered top class when they were bought. I was talking about developing players that were not already top class but were brought up by the respective coaches.

babun1024 wrote:Again, your argument is lacking. He is a renowned coach, why should he go to a small club to prove his worth again? I don't get that mindset

What is so difficult to understand there? If you have to work in strict limitations, you have to be more creative to make something out of the things you have. Being able to buy whatever you fancy is like cheating. I mean, if ManCity wins the PL, who other than the die-hard fans will consider that a real accomplishment? Same would be a win of Chelsea. People will not say the coach+team have won, but the money has won. In Germany you have that with Bayern, too, even if they only spend a fraction of what the sugar daddy owned clubs are able to spend.

babun1024 wrote:Also, zeal is right, the pressure at top clubs isn't comparable to small/ mid table teams at all (see Bayern)

I guess you don't really look at the bottom / lower league teams. There the coaches are probably fired even faster than in the higher echelons. If that isn't pressure (and doesn't even give you the monetary rewards a top class team would give), I don't know.

babun1024 wrote:Löw is somewhat like Wenger but as long as he doesn't win big matches I'm not going to give him more credit
Wenger>>>>>>>Löw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kloppo in my list

Well, I for one am happy that it is actually fun again to watch the German NT. Similar, I really like watching Dortmund. If they don't manage to win right away, so be it - they can always try again next time, but till then I have been highly entertained. And football *is* entertainment most of all.

by Babun Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:03 am

rwo power wrote:
babun1024 wrote:Löw is somewhat like Wenger but as long as he doesn't win big matches I'm not going to give him more credit
Wenger>>>>>>>Löw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kloppo in my list
Well, I for one am happy that it is actually fun again to watch the German NT. Similar, I really like watching Dortmund. If they don't manage to win right away, so be it - they can always try again next time, but till then I have been highly entertained. And football *is* entertainment most of all.

I'm too tired for now. We'll discuss tomorrow. One point though, Low didn't make those players who they're, he can select from a large pool of talented players. There's no way a team with piggy,Ozil, Muller and Lahm could be boring unless Domenech is the coach eco smile

About the entertainment value, we don't playing boring brand of football eco smile

Just watch some of the goals from this season Very Happy

More tomorrow, good night for now, Mäuschen. Ich will nicht, dass wir aneinander vorbeireden eco smile

by Zealous Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:10 am

che wrote:
Zealous wrote:
Who really rated Terry, Lampard, Drogba, Essien etc before Jose? Who really thought they would dominate the PL the way they did getting Chelsea their first ever major silverware?

Who really rated, Sneijder, Lucio, Milito before Jose? Who really thought Jose could win the Champions League with Inetr? Especially after they drew Barca in the semi's?

wow, i did expect a lot of dick-riding in this thread but not to this extent

ranieri finished second with the squad mourinho had minus a few transfers ffs... claudio *bleep* ranieri

on topic, what rwo said... he can win shit when he gets to cherry pick players/has players cherry picked for him... good for him, doesn't make him the best coach ever

True but they weren't champions and they weren't preforming at the levels Jose was managing to get them to preform at week in week out.

Hundreds of coaches get to manage big clubs over the years and they got "cherry pick" the best players and yet it's Jose that gets the plaudits not them. Jose's team that gets the results not theirs, Jose's team that wins the trophies not theirs. Jose's team that breaks records not theirs.

No group of players can ever win major honours with out a great coach. Jose is a great coach. I don't think he's the best ever but he certainly up there imo. (Pep is up there as well imo)

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:21 am

No Pep is not up there.

by Zealous Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:24 am

Why not? From a tactical stand point alone he's managed to achieve amazing things. He has trophies, records, memorable moments. He's up there.

His last test would be to succeed elsewhere.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:33 am

Zealous wrote:Why not? From a tactical stand point alone he's managed to achieve amazing things. He has trophies, records, memorable moments. He's up there.

His last test would be to succeed elsewhere.

Tactical standpoint?

He has just copied previous coaches and the records are down to the fact he had no competition and they had the best side in the world handed to him on a plate.......

Dont think he will succeed outside Barca tbh.

by The Verminator Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:05 am

Guiltybystander wrote:To me, coaches who started a new type of football to me are more impressive, who reinvent the game.

Also, coaches who manage to build a team from the ground, win with them, and keep the team sustained good.

Yeah, Mou won with Porto, but Porto declined after (and so did Inter of course), so he of course gets points for winning with a non money-splashing team, but he hasn't pressed his mark on Porto's game now (nor on Chelsea's, Inter's and I suspect Madrid in the future).

However, we can say that Mourinho is the most objectively accomplished coach, however, a coach who remains with the same team for his whole career and wins several major prices is just as accomplished imo.

Mou is undoubtedly one of the best of course, but not THE MOST LEGENDARY BEST.

IMO, this furthers the arguement that Mou is one of the greatest coach's of today, if not the best. THe teams he left declined, but while he was there, they were successful. I guess you're looking at it from a different perspective than i am.

by kiranr Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:25 am

Too much Mou worship going on in here. All this does not change the fact that he is going to get his ass handed back to him in the clasico! banana

by Sponsored content