M'vila x Javi Martinez

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Post by Mr Nick09 Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:10 am

Discuss :dance:
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Post by Zees Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:06 am

This one is hard but i think M'Vila takes it
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Post by Mr Nick09 Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:24 am

ZsG7 wrote:This one is hard but i think M'Vila takes it

based on what?
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:05 pm

Looking objectively, which team(s) is most suitable for them?
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Post by Sushi Master Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:22 pm

M'Vila is a defensive midfielder with good passing skills, so he's automatically linked to Arsenal because of our lack of proven DM cover and because if you can't pass, you can't play in Arsenal.

Martinez could fit anywhere, though. Shits all over most PL midfielders. Like Barry or Milner with skillz.
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:32 pm

Yeah should be nothing wrong in the good ol' days you have Vieira, Parlour, Edu, Gilberto for two spots. Price most likely high though, maybe other pasture suits him more.

Martinez could fit anywhere yeah, but which team(s) actually have the spot and style most suitable for da man?
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Post by RealGunner Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:34 pm

Javi Martinez has done more in his career
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Post by Mr Nick09 Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:42 pm

RealGunner wrote:Javi Martinez has done more in his career

How would you differentiate both, RG? I know you watch L1 and most likely have watched Javi M as well.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:46 pm

Both are poor mens Cabote's :coffee:
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Post by Guest Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:47 pm

One's more of a box-to-box type while the other is a Makelele clone... sideline to sideline defensive midfielder who covers a lot of territory and has a tireless motor.

If you already have a super creative mid, you take M'Villa because he takes over all defensive duties and gets the ball to him in good conditions. Allows the creative player to focus on offense.

If you need a player that contributes on both sides of the field with equal measure, you take Martinez.

Personally, if Ozil and Sahin are the future creative mids at Madrid, I'd love to bring M'Villa in to free those guys up.

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Post by Mr Nick09 Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:49 pm

Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?
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Post by Iceman Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:53 pm

Why does everyone have to play total football? It's not necessarily the best style
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:56 pm

Iceman wrote:Why does everyone have to play total football? It's not necessarily the best style

Because Old man Yohan says so Very Happy
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Post by Sushi Master Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:01 pm

Who plays total football apart from Barcelona, anyways?
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Post by Mr Nick09 Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:34 pm

Even barca doesnt play total football. They play a high pressing style paired with a high possession style.

Anyway, with Spain, Javi has shown that he can excel at being the lone midfielder marshalling the middle of the pitch
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Post by Adit Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:06 am

javi martinez

Total football is the future,one trick pony players are getting outdated
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:31 am

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

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Post by REWB Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:34 am

arsenal played total football in 07/08 Afro
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Post by urbaNRoots Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:19 am

If I got to choose for Arsenal, i'd choose M'Vila - very good doing his job.
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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:34 am

sportsczy wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

From your explanation, we can conclude that if De Jong is more Makelele, then M'Villa is more Vieira no? Anyway, no intention to be rude or trolling, but that part is quite funny. If you have the ultra creator that doesn't defense and a guy who's excellent in covering the midfield to complement the first person, isn't it a more positional-specialized football and not total football? Very Happy
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:31 am

Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

From your explanation, we can conclude that if De Jong is more Makelele, then M'Villa is more Vieira no? Anyway, no intention to be rude or trolling, but that part is quite funny. If you have the ultra creator that doesn't defense and a guy who's excellent in covering the midfield to complement the first person, isn't it a more positional-specialized football and not total football? Very Happy

Total football is a team concept, not an individual one. If you're talking about the total football player.... Then sure.

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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:37 am

sportsczy wrote:
Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

From your explanation, we can conclude that if De Jong is more Makelele, then M'Villa is more Vieira no? Anyway, no intention to be rude or trolling, but that part is quite funny. If you have the ultra creator that doesn't defense and a guy who's excellent in covering the midfield to complement the first person, isn't it a more positional-specialized football and not total football? Very Happy

Total football is a team concept, not an individual one. If you're talking about the total football player.... Then sure.

That's true, but that involves the player comfortable enough on moving to other position (ie winger switching flanks, striker going deep, defender bringing ball out from the back) and the capability to press as a team. If you said one player is not good enough defensively and just doing the attacking while the other player complimenting him by doing the opposite, then the zone for the players are largely specialized. That then is moving far from the total football team concept, no?
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:39 am

Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

From your explanation, we can conclude that if De Jong is more Makelele, then M'Villa is more Vieira no? Anyway, no intention to be rude or trolling, but that part is quite funny. If you have the ultra creator that doesn't defense and a guy who's excellent in covering the midfield to complement the first person, isn't it a more positional-specialized football and not total football? Very Happy

Total football is a team concept, not an individual one. If you're talking about the total football player.... Then sure.

That's true, but that involves the player comfortable enough on moving to other position (ie winger switching flanks, striker going deep, defender bringing ball out from the back) and the capability to press as a team. If you said one player is not good enough defensively and just doing the attacking while the other player complimenting him by doing the opposite, then the zone for the players are largely specialized. That then is moving far from the total football team concept, no?

It depends again. You have Messi who defends very little but does just enough.... all he does is pressure the ball if it's in an area in the offensive half. After that, he shuts it off. Iniesta, on the other hand, does his defensive job well (steals a lot). But they don't really need to do more than pressure a specific small zone because you have Xavi and Busquets to cover behind and Piquet, Abidal and Puyol who play very close to the midfielders.

If you are going to play 3 forwards and a very offensive AM that is deficient defensively, you need an M'Villa type. If you a AM who knows how to defend enough (Iniesta) and the wingers help (Villa, Sanchez and Pedro), you can get a player that's more of a total package and is not an elite defender.

Right now, Ozil is struggling because he's asked to cover defensively and he doesn't quite know how yet. Khedira and Alonso are not elite defenders, although they are good. If M'Villa was in there instead of Khedira, Ozil would only need to help with the transitional aspect of offense a bit more. Defensively, he would need to do very little. Just as an example...

It's all a question of the scheme of total football and the players involved.

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Post by Superstone Mariomintsch Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:54 am

sportsczy wrote:
Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
Superstone Mariomintsch wrote:
sportsczy wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Isnt the goal of total football to have players that can take on both offensive and defensive duties?

No. There are minimums; but you don't need to be equally as good. There are different versions of total football as well. When you have ultra creative players that are not very good defensively (most of them), you need to provide them with great defensive cover and allow them to focus on their attack mostly. You only ask these players to defend to cover the remaining defensive holes... in short, M'Villa would be amazing for almost any team with playmakers who fit the profile i described above. Besides, he's very adequate technically and can play a bit more forward when needed.

There just aren't many players that can be the defensive everything and still have good technique to handle midfield duties. Lass, De Jong, etc. have major technical and tactical issues. That's not the case with M'Villa.

From your explanation, we can conclude that if De Jong is more Makelele, then M'Villa is more Vieira no? Anyway, no intention to be rude or trolling, but that part is quite funny. If you have the ultra creator that doesn't defense and a guy who's excellent in covering the midfield to complement the first person, isn't it a more positional-specialized football and not total football? Very Happy

Total football is a team concept, not an individual one. If you're talking about the total football player.... Then sure.

That's true, but that involves the player comfortable enough on moving to other position (ie winger switching flanks, striker going deep, defender bringing ball out from the back) and the capability to press as a team. If you said one player is not good enough defensively and just doing the attacking while the other player complimenting him by doing the opposite, then the zone for the players are largely specialized. That then is moving far from the total football team concept, no?

It depends again. You have Messi who defends very little but does just enough.... all he does is pressure the ball if it's in an area in the offensive half. After that, he shuts it off. Iniesta, on the other hand, does his defensive job well (steals a lot). But they don't really need to do more than pressure a specific small zone because you have Xavi and Busquets to cover behind and Piquet, Abidal and Puyol who play very close to the midfielders.

If you are going to play 3 forwards and a very offensive AM that is deficient defensively, you need an M'Villa type. If you a AM who knows how to defend enough (Iniesta) and the wingers help (Villa, Sanchez and Pedro), you can get a player that's more of a total package and is not an elite defender.

Right now, Ozil is struggling because he's asked to cover defensively and he doesn't quite know how yet. Khedira and Alonso are not elite defenders, although they are good. If M'Villa was in there instead of Khedira, Ozil would only need to help with the transitional aspect of offense a bit more. Defensively, he would need to do very little. Just as an example...

It's all a question of the scheme of total football and the players involved.

Thanks for the explanation. But then again, I have to respond back here. From what I understand, if you have a player like Ozil who concentrates solely doesn't work enough defensively that it pushes the team to have another specialist on a DM role. I mean Barca 04-06 might be better to watch for some, but it certainly was not total football imo. Although there are a lot interchanging, but there is a player like Ronaldinho who still specializes solely in attacking.

Yes Messi doesn't defense enough but I think he helps his mates just enough with what he do defensively and when attacking the players that on paper behind him could be ahead of him. If you have guys, let's use M'Villa and Ozil then it would be a rare sight that M'Villa is far ahead of Ozil. Hence I think if you have position-specialist then it's not total football anymore. Like recently when Ibra posted that biography when he has awkward quarrel with Pep due to him wanting to always be far up, I think that just shows what I mean here. Very Happy Nice discussion anyway, you truly expertise your field well, Monsieur :bow:
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Post by Guest Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:12 pm

M'Villa is not one dimensional at all... that's the part that i haven't made clear. He jumps into the fray plenty. However, he only does it if there's a need or an opening. He scored a goal for France NT a couple of months ago where Benzema was pushed wide by the pass and he jumped into the center to take the space... and he got the pass from Benz and scored.

The only thing i'm saying is the M'Villa can alleviate the defensive responsibilities and allow the offensive players to stay up front a lot more.

and Ibra is a lazy douche. Ozil works hard... very hard. But he's lost on defense right now because he's learning. he also expends too much energy on defense because he doesn;t know how to manage himself there. You can either try to transform him, as Mou is now, or you can bring more complimentary players to him, like M'Villa.

Btw, total football requires everyone to participate. I'm just talking degrees of participation here. Depending on the squad, people will need to participate more or less on each side of the field.

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