Real Madrid vs. Ajax

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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:06 pm

Mou isnt the only coach who can dethrone Barca.

shuster with a very average squad with freaking GAGO as play maker beat them 4-1 with xavi and yaya running like headless chicken.

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Post by Doc on Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:08 pm

Barcelona may have had the better squad on paper but they were really terrible on the field. Basically, Barcelona underachieved greatly that season and we milked that to its limit and then some....

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Post by guest7 on Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:52 pm

Jibers said it. We are on the right path but it's Messi... There is nothing that can stop him, whatever tactic Mou tries to employ and the guy keeps getting better.

Also I agree the manager should have the power, it's him that creates a squad and he shouldn't ask the president for players and await a yes/no response, it's the manager who picks his players and makes his team
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Post by StrugaRock on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:12 pm

@Adit wrote:Mou isnt the only coach who can dethrone Barca.

shuster with a very average squad with freaking GAGO as play maker beat them 4-1 with xavi and yaya running like headless chicken.

So what you are saying is Barca 2007/08 = Barca 2010/11 and Schuster > Mourinho?

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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:19 pm

@StrugaRock wrote:
@Adit wrote:Mou isnt the only coach who can dethrone Barca.

shuster with a very average squad with freaking GAGO as play maker beat them 4-1 with xavi and yaya running like headless chicken.

So what you are saying is Barca 2007/08 = Barca 2010/11 and Schuster > Mourinho?
Nope,that was just an example.

barca was poor that season but our squad quality was even piss poor.

With the squad we have we should definitely able to make it tough for barca,but mou's one dimensional game is predictable for Barcelona.There are certainly more than one coachwho can defeat this barcelona with our squad,i strongly believe that.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:27 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Just as a comparison... Villa has 5 goals on 23 shots in 7 games. So he's not getting enough shots either. But he's not playing CF. He's a wing/striker.

Which is another point... for all intents and purposes, CR7 is playing CF. So that they don't run into each other, Benz often comes up to the SS position or goes to a wing. He's not quite as wide as Villa is; but it's getting there lol.

Maybe i shouldn't harp on the stats you expect for CFs since our CF is not the one we put on paper... It's CR7.

Sportczy, I don't mean to go on about Benzema (as I said earlier the basic problem has been midfield) but your stats don't take into account the open sitters. I have seen most of the Villa shots on goal and the misses haven't been sitters, yet I can count at least 10 theat benz has misfired on this year. He is playing better than last year IMO and is creating plays. I don't disagree that they aren't not getting the ball to him enough, but if he is going to have a tag of a top 5 CF then he has to make most of these open sitters.
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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:36 pm

Cr7 misses a ton of sitters too. So did r9. So does Rooney, aguero, etc. Not comparing him to some of those guys by any means... But it happens to everyone and more often than you'd think. Only reason they're not noticed is because they make them up with more goals... Which happens as a result of multiple opportunities. 2-3 shots a game when the team averages over 20 is ridiculous for our starting cf.

Btw, Benz has had 2 bad misses in the 7 games.

Also, The number of sitters villa missed in the second half of last year was unbelievable for a player of his caliber. Remember, he didn't score for 4 months or something like that at all.

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Post by Doc on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:39 pm

Hehe, the gloves are steadily coming off.

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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:40 pm

well about ajax match,i found a interesting article posted by a fellow madridista.

"Great goals - yes. But is this a performance that wins trophies? I think we'd all have to say 'No'.

As he points out Ajax had a lot of the ball, more than us. They also hurt us with their passing and movement, and it was Ajax who drew first blood. Madrid were away with the fairies for the first 20 minutes, and Ajax were landing some heavy blows on the chin.

One reason has to be the classic 4-2-3-1 that we are now used to. It can't be a valid formation in crucial Champions League games. The team splits in half, with a tremendous distance between defence and attack. In contrast Ajax moved their players intelligently and we struggled to pick up their midfield runners who continuously pierced our back line.

Alonso had a great game. But the man of the match was Casillas. It was a near faultless display, high balls, shot stopping and reflex saves. The only blot was his weak kicking. It must be incredibly frustrating for Ajax fans, seeing how their side is matching Real Madrid, for passing, movement and skill - yet on the end of 3-0 beating. For me it was because of Casillas.

It is time to abandon this suicidal formation in the big games. We need an extra dedicated midfielder (Sahin, Granero) or there will come a time when a quality team will not be as forgiving as Ajax. We could play a 4-3-3 or even a 4-4-2 diamond, with Ozil at the tip and Cristiano playing off Benzema. Or, why not? A 3-5-3. We do have an abundance of central defenders, so why not make use of them and free Marcelo to attack from deep?

My personal opinion of Di Maria is that he is too limited to play in this team. He's super fast, great work ethic, has the best dribbling skills I've seen (ever?) but he doesn't contribute in other areas of the field. Added to that is his poor decision making. For me Di Maria is a dedicated old fashioned winger, whose real role is that of super sub.

I agree 100% with Kaushik with his criticism of Ramos. He is not a top quality right back. He gets beaten by a lot of average / inexperienced wingers, despite his impressive physical ability.

Varane looks top quality. He has good speed and reactions (contrary to what some posters here have said) and put out a lot of fires yesterday.

Arbeloa is nothing but a stand in at left back and shouldn't be criticised too much there. I think he happens to be better than Ramos at right back, but that doesn't mean he is the perfect solution either. His real role is also that of substitute.

Of course I did enjoy the game, but Ajax is not a top European side, but at times we played with fire. Next time, for sure the firecracker will explode in our faces."

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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:47 pm

Pretty much right on adit, except that I don't think Ramos is that bad. People keep forgetting that we often play with Marcelo playing a quasi extra attacking winger position and, thus, is often out of position defensively. As a result, we play a 3-man defense and it's important that all 3 be able to cover both centrally and wide. Not too many fullbacks that can be great CBs too. Abidal is the only other one that I can think of amongs current players.

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Post by guest7 on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:50 pm

It's BS, 4-2-3-1 is one of the most used modern formations, it's not bad and it's perfect for counter attacking and thats the playstyle we are aiming for atm

that article was pretty bad, casillas wasnt the man of the match, he had to do like 3 saves the whole game and while they all were good saves these chances werent particularily the greatest except the header
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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:54 pm

Our large gap between D and O is partly due to lack of ball playing CBs and our Immobile double pivot whose ability to play further up(in tight spaces ) is very poor.

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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:55 pm

Omarish... That first save was tough. He also controlled the box like a champ. Not MOTM obviously (i personally thoug it was either Alonso or cr7), but casillas is great.

As more teams go to a 4-3-3, unless you hVe two wc mids, 4-2-3-1 is really tough to pull off. As he said, the team gets split in two. Happened to us twice already.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:56 pm

You guys are making a lot of a very small part of meeting. It was an annual general meeting, mostly to approve budget for year. In the Q & A, there was a lot of questions re Mou and perez defended quite strongly. However the people with the negative comments were very few. Keep in miind there are close to 90,000 socios and only about 1,000 attend these meetings (before you get excited about these numbers bear in mind that these numbers are similar to attendance at any large corportation annual shareholders meetings. These annual general meeting are very similar to shareholders meetings. The Q& A that you guys are referring to is the last item on the agenda and certainly a very smallpart. The meeting is generally about the business of running the club (note - it is much more than futbol).
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Post by Adit on Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:07 pm

omarish wrote:It's BS, 4-2-3-1 is one of the most used modern formations, it's not bad and it's perfect for counter attacking and thats the playstyle we are aiming for atm

that article was pretty bad, casillas wasnt the man of the match, he had to do like 3 saves the whole game and while they all were good saves these chances werent particularily the greatest except the header
Not really,the article was pretty much spot on our problems.

Its perfect for counter.But do you believe this counter system will work against elite teams like Barca,united and Manu? i personally dont. what if the opposition score a first goal? we are doomed,we almost always struggles when opposition scores first.why?

dont you see our team spitted in two halves? it not only affect our build up play but also it effects our TEAM defending.It really adds alot of extra pressure on defenders.It also makes our players easily exhausted due to constant running from top to bottom.

We certainly are a one dimensional team ATM,but this squad is capable of playing alot more than a ONE D team.

And dont call that article BS based on MOTM selection and ignore all other good points.I personally think Xabi was the MOTM.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:22 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Omarish... That first save was tough. He also controlled the box like a champ. Not MOTM obviously (i personally thoug it was either Alonso or cr7), but casillas is great.

As more teams go to a 4-3-3, unless you hVe two wc mids, 4-2-3-1 is really tough to pull off. As he said, the team gets split in two. Happened to us twice already.

Have any of you guys noticed how more and more teams are going with 3 man defense? Some are starting off this way while others are sliding into this as games progress.

Most interesting to me is Barca have done this for several of their games this year. It was initially proposed as a way to have Cesc in starting line-up, but with their injuries to Puyol and Pique and Alves playing like Marcelo (mostly up on wing), it has kind of evolved to be semi standard. However as someone said when we were playing supercup, they wouldn't dare try that against us! I expect they only use the 3 man defense against weaker opponents or for an offensive thrust part of a game.

But now I've noticed several other teams doing this, latest was Bayern and some team in EPL (can't remember who). I'm just wondering if it will become a new trend. (Of course there are plenty of examples of the exact opposite wherein teams are playing 5 to 10 defense.
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Post by Guest on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:03 pm

unless you have 3 WC defenders, two of them CBs and super athletic ones at that, it would be complete suicide to go to a 3-4-3 against top attacking teams. There are too many precise passers and speed with the better clubs...

4-3-3 is the trend because midfield is where you can make the difference in a game if all else is close to equal. As Ozil learns the CM position more and more + Kaka instead of Di Maria + Benz playing SS, we're going to play a very ball control heavy style as well. Not a typical 4-3-3, but more a 4-2-2-2. where the middle "2"s (4 players) are midfielders (CMs and AMs), Marcelo is the winger from defense and then the striker duo of CR7 and Benz. Killer given the skill of our players.

It'll be interesting once Sahin comes back. You can't sit Kaka if he's in full form, you need a CF and forward, and Alonso is also untouchable. It will be a choice between Khedira and Sahin.

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Post by guest7 on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:04 pm

@Adit wrote:
omarish wrote:It's BS, 4-2-3-1 is one of the most used modern formations, it's not bad and it's perfect for counter attacking and thats the playstyle we are aiming for atm

that article was pretty bad, casillas wasnt the man of the match, he had to do like 3 saves the whole game and while they all were good saves these chances werent particularily the greatest except the header
Not really,the article was pretty much spot on our problems.

Its perfect for counter.But do you believe this counter system will work against elite teams like Barca,united and Manu? i personally dont. what if the opposition score a first goal? we are doomed,we almost always struggles when opposition scores first.why?

dont you see our team spitted in two halves? it not only affect our build up play but also it effects our TEAM defending.It really adds alot of extra pressure on defenders.It also makes our players easily exhausted due to constant running from top to bottom.

We certainly are a one dimensional team ATM,but this squad is capable of playing alot more than a ONE D team.

And dont call that article BS based on MOTM selection and ignore all other good points.I personally think Xabi was the MOTM.

Man U plays a 4-4-2, which is almost the same thing as a 4-2-3-1. They are not very different. So yes, I believe a 4-2-3-1 is perfectly fine for playing against a top team. None the less, I'm expecting a 4-3-3 move soon, when Sahin returns. We also have played 4-3-3 alot this season, so I'm not surprised if the move happens.

Also, I haven't noticed that we lose as soon as someone scores first. Give me an example. In the Camp Nou, Barca scored 1st before Marcelos goal came afterwards. In the Super Copa (Camp Nou game again) they scored first too. In all these examples we gave a fight back even if the result wasn't in our favor and only lost becouse of their quality and team being better than ours (or Messi being better than us)

A change to 4-3-3 would indeed help, but at the moment we don't have the players for it. Wait until Sahin comes and then discuss it. I also like the idea of a 4-3-3 but the 4-2-3-1 is okay. It's good for counter attacks and that is how we are playing so we can survive with it.
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Post by Onyx on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:05 pm

Agree with that article.

Ramos gets beaten by competent wingers. He should move to CB.

Also Di Maria would be better off as an impact sub.

In terms of formations 4-3-3 would allow us to play a better possession game. We need a formation where we can play good possession football and not just rely on counter-attacks for goals.

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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:20 pm

mtfootball wrote:Agree with that article.

Ramos gets beaten by competent wingers. He should move to CB.

Also Di Maria would be better off as an impact sub.

In terms of formations 4-3-3 would allow us to play a better possession game. We need a formation where we can play good possession football and not just rely on counter-attacks for goals.


I don't agree re Ramos. I still think he is one of best RB in world. I do agree with Sports that we are likely playing a 4-2-2-2 for next while and when Sahin comes back, he is more likely (if Kaka keeps up recent effort) to be used in place of Khedira and occasionally for Alonso.

Re impact sub, we now have quite a few of them. On defense you have to now give serious consideration to Varane plus there is Arbeloa. and if his last game is any indication Albiol should also get more game action (kind of keeps Ramos at RB unless there is a real emergency). At MF, besides Sahin, there is Coentrao, Altintop and Lass (yet alone the forgotten Granero). and up from both Di Maria and Higgy are impact plus I've liked what I have seen from Callejon. Bottom line is that if Mou gives all his plays some playing time, there isn't a player on squad this year that can't contribute. But you said impact and for that I would list Varane, Arbeloa, Sahin, Coentrao, Di Maria and Higgy.
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Post by Onyx on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:30 pm

Coentrao, Altintop and Lass would hinder our possession play if played at CM, which is where Mourinho plays them.
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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:34 pm

mtfootball wrote:Coentrao, Altintop and Lass would hinder our possession play if played at CM, which is where Mourinho plays them.

Oh, I agree. I don't expect them to start (not sure if Mou agrees re Coentrao), but depending upon situation, they can add something as a late sub (Coentrao and Altintop for their energy / work rate and Lass to tighten up defense).
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Post by futbol_bill on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:36 pm

Most of our subs (if we go (and stay) with the 4-2-2-2 formation will alter the formation except for defense and Higgy for Benz.
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