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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:42 pm

I quite like it when other fans post here. There is a lot of things that happen within the club that people outside don't know about. They make their own assumptions based and what they see and read in the media and judge us based on those assumptions.

The group we have here is more in tune with what is going on inside the club and at youth levels as well. (We even watch the youth teams play)

We have guys like Bill and Nick who regularly read AS/Marca, Sport has his understanding of the game at various levels as well as French media insight. As well with the rest of the guys who find and share things we discuss.

I think it would be nice if other posters are aware of the details we discuss here. Maybe then false assumptions about us would stop.


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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:55 pm

@sportsczy wrote:How was Inter young lol. Milito, Lucio, Maicon, Schneider, Eto'o, etc. are all in the later parts of their careers.

You are looking more and more ignorant by the post. Just stop lol.


Of course.

Mou Inter 08-09:

Filkor: 19

Aquafresca: 20


Bonnuci 22

Jiménez 23

Quaresma: 23

Obina: 21

Maaroufi: 21
Viviano: 22

Who went out?

Quite a lot of youth players, more then half of them did not come back.


Mou Inter 2009-10

Arnautovic
Santon
Belec
Carlsen
Donati
Alibec
Stevanovic
Plus 10+ more who all were at the age of under 23 and never reached the top team despite the promise and talent.

You mentioned focus on youth players and system? Deja vu.

Mourinho had a massive influx of youth and work into the systems as statistically it his first squad team players age increased by each week.

bringing in a few young player does not mean he will stay and build a dynasty as you think.

Your data that you gave me mirrored the exact same thing Mou did with his previous teams.






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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:56 pm

The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:58 pm

@Zealous wrote:I quite like it when other fans post here. There is a lot of things that happen within the club that people outside don't know about. They make their own assumptions based and what they see and read in the media and judge us based on those assumptions.

The group we have here is more in tune with what is going on inside the club and at youth levels as well. (We even watch the youth teams play)

We have guys like Bill and Nick who regularly read AS/Marca, Sport has his understanding of the game at various levels as well as French media insight. As well with the rest of the guys who find and share things we discuss.

I think it would be nice if other posters are aware of the details we discuss here. Maybe then false assumptions about us would stop.


I don't see what assumptions I am making here considering half my debates were based on defending Madrid and simply analyzing Mou's goals and thought process.

Most of you seem to be so disillusioned by the Barca fans that you seem to take that I am criticizing your team whereas it is quite the opposite.

I suggest, read less selectively and concentrate more on the larger thesis of my passages.

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Post by Guest on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:59 pm

@Zealous wrote:The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

Exactly. The youth are the core of the team... not just window dressing.

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:07 pm

@Zealous wrote:The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

Yes.

Thats because I mentioned upon the youth who were intended to makes apps yet did not.

Many of the youth that did play showed promise yet were increasingly favored upon by more experience players.

How about Matteos? Leon (understandable due to attitude)? Canales? How about further youth players graduating.

These were all youth who clearly did not receive enough time as this isn't criticism of Mou yet I'm just highlighting his priority in terms of measure of experience to deploy.


And I forgot to mention that once again, Sanchez is responsible and under most of these youth system decisions as Mou has made his decisions regarding the cash transfers such as Ozil, Coentrao etc.




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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:07 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
@Zealous wrote:I quite like it when other fans post here. There is a lot of things that happen within the club that people outside don't know about. They make their own assumptions based and what they see and read in the media and judge us based on those assumptions.

The group we have here is more in tune with what is going on inside the club and at youth levels as well. (We even watch the youth teams play)

We have guys like Bill and Nick who regularly read AS/Marca, Sport has his understanding of the game at various levels as well as French media insight. As well with the rest of the guys who find and share things we discuss.

I think it would be nice if other posters are aware of the details we discuss here. Maybe then false assumptions about us would stop.


I don't see what assumptions I am making here considering half my debates were based on defending Madrid and simply analyzing Mou's goals and thought process.

Most of you seem to be so disillusioned by the Barca fans that you seem to take that I am criticizing your team whereas it is quite the opposite.

I suggest, read less selectively and concentrate more on the larger thesis of my passages.

You're assuming you know Jose's goals and thought process, that's the point. I think you are just sharing your opinion (which I'm glad you are) not criticizing so no need to worry about you being misunderstood.

I suggest you appreciate that we have more insight than you as to what is going on in the club we support. Your "thesis" may make sense to you (It would make sense to me as well if I were in your position) but it's fundamentally wrong to us because we have more info.

As for the Blogger, she is a very level headed fan who gives her insight. She is someone we enjoy getting info from but she is still just a fan. Judging her is silly IMO because she is just a fan. I personally think she knows a lot about what's going on in the club and she provides a nice source of info for us who don't speak Spanish.

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:12 pm

@Zealous wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:
@Zealous wrote:I quite like it when other fans post here. There is a lot of things that happen within the club that people outside don't know about. They make their own assumptions based and what they see and read in the media and judge us based on those assumptions.

The group we have here is more in tune with what is going on inside the club and at youth levels as well. (We even watch the youth teams play)

We have guys like Bill and Nick who regularly read AS/Marca, Sport has his understanding of the game at various levels as well as French media insight. As well with the rest of the guys who find and share things we discuss.

I think it would be nice if other posters are aware of the details we discuss here. Maybe then false assumptions about us would stop.


I don't see what assumptions I am making here considering half my debates were based on defending Madrid and simply analyzing Mou's goals and thought process.

Most of you seem to be so disillusioned by the Barca fans that you seem to take that I am criticizing your team whereas it is quite the opposite.

I suggest, read less selectively and concentrate more on the larger thesis of my passages.

You're assuming you know Jose's goals and thought process, that's the point. I think you are just sharing your opinion (which I'm glad you are) not criticizing so no need to worry about you being misunderstood.

I suggest you appreciate that we have more insight than you as to what is going on in the club we support. Your "thesis" may make sense to you (It would make sense to me as well if I were in your position) but it's fundamentally wrong to us because we have more info.

As for the Blogger, she is a very level headed fan who gives her insight. She is someone we enjoy getting info from but she is still just a fan. Judging her is silly IMO because she is just a fan. I personally think she knows a lot about what's going on in the club and she provides a nice source of info for us who don't speak Spanish.

I don't see anything wrong about my thesis considering its completely agreeing with everything except the conception that Mou will remain in Madrid to build a dynasty.

My mistake on judging the blogger as I had the idea that it was written by a professional yet non-official Madrid supporting site.

If it is in fact a blog, then it deserves it individual acclaim for its effort and record.




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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:16 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
@Zealous wrote:The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

Yes.

Thats because I mentioned upon the youth who were intended to makes apps yet did not.

Many of the youth that did play showed promise yet were increasingly favored upon by more experience players.

How about Matteos? Leon (understandable due to attitude)? Canales? How about further youth players graduating.

These were all youth who clearly did not receive enough time as this isn't criticism of Mou yet I'm just highlighting his priority in terms of measure of experience to deploy.


And I forgot to mention that once again, Sanchez is responsible and under most of these youth system decisions as Mou has made his decisions regarding the cash transfers such as Ozil, Coentrao etc.




Yes but that still doesn't change the fact that the core of this Madrid team is young. Regardless of what's happening at Inter it isn't something that affects what happens at Madrid.

Mateos was given his shot and is still being monitored even now like all our cantera, of course not all of them can come back but the fact that they are still being monitored is a good thing, Canales, Parejo, Sarabia and Juan Carlos are still being monitored for example. As for Pedro Leon you said it yourself his attitude sucked. But we replaced him with Callejon who is IMO a better player and is cantera as well.

Canales was in the middle of a political problem in the club, he was a Valdano signing so it didn't help his case that it wasn't Jose who scouted him. The fact that he was a tad erratic (understandable for his age) didn't help either. But he can still come back when he is ready and a spot on the squad is cleared.

As for Sanchez, I agree that he is doing most of the work but it's a group effort and in the end Jose is the one with the final say.

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:39 pm

@Zealous wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:
@Zealous wrote:The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

Yes.

Thats because I mentioned upon the youth who were intended to makes apps yet did not.

Many of the youth that did play showed promise yet were increasingly favored upon by more experience players.

How about Matteos? Leon (understandable due to attitude)? Canales? How about further youth players graduating.

These were all youth who clearly did not receive enough time as this isn't criticism of Mou yet I'm just highlighting his priority in terms of measure of experience to deploy.


And I forgot to mention that once again, Sanchez is responsible and under most of these youth system decisions as Mou has made his decisions regarding the cash transfers such as Ozil, Coentrao etc.




Yes but that still doesn't change the fact that the core of this Madrid team is young. Regardless of what's happening at Inter it isn't something that affects what happens at Madrid.

Mateos was given his shot and is still being monitored even now like all our cantera, of course not all of them can come back but the fact that they are still being monitored is a good thing, Canales, Parejo, Sarabia and Juan Carlos are still being monitored for example. As for Pedro Leon you said it yourself his attitude sucked. But we replaced him with Callejon who is IMO a better player and is cantera as well.

Canales was in the middle of a political problem in the club, he was a Valdano signing so it didn't help his case that it wasn't Jose who scouted him. The fact that he was a tad erratic (understandable for his age) didn't help either. But he can still come back when he is ready and a spot on the squad is cleared.

As for Sanchez, I agree that he is doing most of the work but it's a group effort and in the end Jose is the one with the final say.

My point isn't to highlight that Mou follows an Ancelotti esque model of playing only experience players with little youth in the 11, but to highlight that building for the long term future is in fact not one of his top priorities as Mou's track record has been known to accumulate trophies within the shortest space of time yet his weakness is a true vision for the future similar to Wenger, VDB, Trap, Hitzfeld.


I compare Inter to Real as it matters due to the fact that his modus operandi is to reach his target of trophy and then move on to another venture.

Unless his modus operandi has taken a 180 and he wants to settle.

He has repeatedly stated his longing to return to the EPL and then move to the international stage.

Which means a dynasty won't be set by him at Madrid but rather when a target is reached.

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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Well we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. Madrid is an unpredictable place as we all know. Honestly anything could happen but what is for sure is that the club is building for the future, whether that future includes Jose remains to be seen.

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Post by Onyx on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:44 pm

Does it matter if we develop youths or not?
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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:48 pm

@Zealous wrote:Well we'll have to wait and see how it pans out. Madrid is an unpredictable place as we all know. Honestly anything could happen but what is for sure is that the club is building for the future, whether that future includes Jose remains to be seen.

Which is exactly why I mentioned that a dynasty is built based on the results and successful output of generations.

My criticism of Mou was based the fact that Mou should have focused on building for the future for Porto, Inter and Chelsea.

Yet, this does not mean I doubt his future building capabilities as if he settles, I feel he can in fact create a long standing dynasty with a solid foundation.

As its not that he can't build for the future, but does he really prioritize that? Judging by his ambition on future ventures, not really.

But as mentioned, it remains to be seen on the track of his thought and outcome.


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Post by Onyx on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Mourinho has bought several young players. Thing is though Real Madrid will probably always buy the best players.
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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:54 pm

@ MT

I'd like to think that it does. Considering that there are a lot of positives in doing so.

@Arquitecto

What Jose has planned for his future is something only he really knows. I'm aware the British media are trying their best to make it look like he's desperate to come back.

He seems comfortable for now and if he does stay for the next 4 years he'll become one of our longest staying coaches LOL. It'll be interesting to see what happens if we manage to win the European Cup. If Jose stays after that I think things will be very clear.

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 pm

@Zealous wrote:@ MT

I'd like to think that it does. Considering that there are a lot of positives in doing so.

@Arquitecto

What Jose has planned for his future is something only he really knows. I'm aware the British media are trying their best to make it look like he's desperate to come back.

He seems comfortable for now and if he does stay for the next 4 years he'll become one of our longest staying coaches LOL. It'll be interesting to see what happens if we manage to win the European Cup. If Jose stays after that I think things will be very clear.

While it is clear that the english media are manipulative in that sense, it has been confirmed on the statements of Mou that he would like to return.

Jose won't leave unless he wins the league and CL as with the other clubs of his.

My question is that whether he will stay after this target is reached as if he does, then this could be the mark of his decision to settle.


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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:58 pm

Mourinho used that statement that he wanted to go back in England as a lever to pull a lot of things out of Perez, he is a political beast, why mention it so often if it's not to gain an advantage somewhere.

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Post by Onyx on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:59 pm

If we win the treble this season, SAF retires and Man Utd call Mourinho, then he probably will come to England.
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Post by Zealous on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:01 pm

There are a lot of ifs in that sentence LOL

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:02 pm

If we win the treble and Fergie retires, there is no way mourinho will go straight after him, who would want to do that?

he is going to let someone else break his teeth on the task first and have the fans begging for him to come

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:02 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Mourinho used that statement that he wanted to go back in England as a lever to pull a lot of things out of Perez, he is a political beast, why mention it so often if it's not to gain an advantage somewhere.

Well since he does in fact possess unfinished business in EPL due to the rash manner of his departure.

Mou has been known to favor the EPL over the Liga and Serie A as he has made it clear he would like to win the CL with an english team.

There also is his ambition to win on the international stage, namely with portugal.

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Post by Onyx on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:07 pm

Mourinho still has a lot of years.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:18 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
@Zealous wrote:The difference is that the guys we signed are actually getting substantial playing time....

Yes.

Thats because I mentioned upon the youth who were intended to makes apps yet did not.

Many of the youth that did play showed promise yet were increasingly favored upon by more experience players.

How about Matteos? Leon (understandable due to attitude)? Canales? How about further youth players graduating.

These were all youth who clearly did not receive enough time as this isn't criticism of Mou yet I'm just highlighting his priority in terms of measure of experience to deploy.


And I forgot to mention that once again, Sanchez is responsible and under most of these youth system decisions as Mou has made his decisions regarding the cash transfers such as Ozil, Coentrao etc.




If we stay here and pretend that Mou is a youth guru, then we are lying to ourselves. He will sacrifice them for winning 70% of the time.

I would like to think that he tried but he also failed a lot, because attaching a lot of youth development to his way of coaching is very difficult.

One player he made a lot of strides for is Balotelli, but balo is a nut job. Guys like Robben or Joe Cole in Chelsea.

Now with Real, he is trying again, but in a more orderly fashion. It's a bit cynical to think that his objective is just to ruin youth talent. He might have disproportionate expectations for those kids at an early age, which doesnt go hand to hand with reality most of the time.

As an example, Canales. I'm sure mourinho made mistakes, but i think it's naive to think it's only a one way affair. The one thing i am convinced of, is that mourinho makes no exceptions about the way he trains his players, and he is the kind of guy who asks people to train as hard as if they were on the pitch. I think the culture shock was tremendous for canales, that and the expectation level and pressure that goes with being a madrid player. So i think Canales messed up a little on that regard as well, and slacked off a great deal during the whole season, hence mou didnt reward him much. Mourinho was the one talking about how much Canales needed not to listen to the madrid press trying to hype him, and work hard. If you ask me, he didnt, and things spiraled down. I dont even recall mourinho talking about how hard working Canales is, and if you are, he will gladly say it. He did it for Alonso, Granero, Godbeloa, Ronaldo, Benzema and.....VARANE. tough luck for Canales.

Mateos was a political coup to promote a castilla, he wasnt even rated as our best defender back then.


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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:20 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Mourinho used that statement that he wanted to go back in England as a lever to pull a lot of things out of Perez, he is a political beast, why mention it so often if it's not to gain an advantage somewhere.

Well since he does in fact possess unfinished business in EPL due to the rash manner of his departure.

Mou has been known to favor the EPL over the Liga and Serie A as he has made it clear he would like to win the CL with an english team.

There also is his ambition to win on the international stage, namely with portugal.

We all know he loves the EPL. But how odd is it that Mourinho sings about it so freely in his first year as a Madrid coach. It's all about gaining leverage, Perez needed him.

One thing i have learned about Mourinho, he never does nor says something out of nowhere, there is always a purpose.

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:20 pm

@Doc wrote:
@futbol_bill wrote:
@Doc wrote:Even the neutral (unless it's with Real Oviedo) Sid Lowe is questioning what exactly is Pinto's purpose...

Doc, I'm from Oviedo. I don't get your reference to Real Oviedo.

Probably word it wrong but Side Lowe is a Real Oviedo fan supposedly. Was just stating that he is neutral when it comes to all matters that doesn't concern Real Oviedo...

Doc - Thanks for the update. Real Oviedo is awful. Now in 2B (same group this year as Castilla). After they got demoted from la liga (by now about 10 -15 years ago), the owner (at that time) decided he wasn't (Ed correction) going to pay some required funds so they right down to 2B. From there they managed to get to 3rd and in that almost amateur group took several years to get promoted to 2B. 2 years ago they got into the playoffs to be promoted to 2A (Liga Adelante) but like Castiila last year, they blew it. The only good thing I can say about Real Oviedo is that Mata once played for them.

Another sad story is the year they got demoted they had built a new stadium, which was to be ready for the start of the next season. They ended up having a 2B team in it instead of a Liga team.


Last edited by futbol_bill on Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:28 pm

Nick, great insight as I've learned from the passage and agree on many points.

Yet, the RM Castilla was originally known to be among the best in the world and made the Barca system look like a provincial system.

All that untapped potential left alone and not given enough time would be a crime as Inter had the same type of potential in its youth yet most of the talent was not exploited effectively.

I just hope for the national team that guys like Morata, Sarabia, Nacho, Juanfran etc all receive more time.

As for his England comments, you may be right, yet I feel due to his vendetta with Roman, he would want to go back to prove a point within another club; namely United or City.

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