Ricardo Carvalho Failed.

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Post by The Madrid One on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:14 am

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/18/mourinho-messi-false-nine/

It Is A good article explaining how ricardo carvalho was supposed to be the main man taking care of lionel messi, which in the false 9 position tore real madrid open at the bernabeu by assisting villa and then scoring him self.

at the camp nou he scores a brace and wins it for barcelona. what cost us the game?

many say the midfield more than the defense, but for in large part ricardo carlvaho's inability to deal with messi cost real big time.

it wouldnt be a bad idea to use alvaro arbeloa as an rb, if we look at ramos's job in attack its nothing not worth replacing with a ramos-pepe center back pairing helping out more with the job.

either bring varane in or arbeloa.

but carvalho is most likely out.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:26 am

Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao,

it's time we try it.

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Post by Pedram on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:43 am

Carvalho has a two year contract with us. this season we can use him as a sub.

against weak teams we must use this defense line:

Ramos - Pepe - Varane - Marcelo/Conterao

and against strong teams:

Arbeloa - Ramos - Pepe - Marcelo/Conterao
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Post by FennecFox7 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:16 am

His speed kills him, thats the problem
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Post by LeSwagg James on Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:10 am

Anybody with speed can kill Carvalho lol

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Post by EarlyPrototype on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:38 am

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao,

it's time we try it.

My dream lineup.
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Post by Giovanni10 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:07 pm

Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao:

is fantasy nonsense. Only one genuine central defender and one of the fullbacks playing on the wrong side. If you're going to play Ramos central then you need a more defensively solid fullback on his side, this is the obvious option,

Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo

Coentrao goes up to midfield and starts there because he is a million times better than Khedira.
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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:13 pm

Someone mentioned this in a thread somewhere...

With Marcelo attacking every chance he gets, you're often left with a 3-man defense... Ramos is a RB on paper; but he often has to shift towards the center as Carvalho moves to the left to cover and Pepe also moves a bit over.

Because of this, moving Ramos to CB may be a bad idea. Other than Marcelo, we need the other defenders to be able all play centrally very well.

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Post by Rossoneri Ninja on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:29 pm

@Giovanni10 wrote:Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao:

is fantasy nonsense. Only one genuine central defender and one of the fullbacks playing on the wrong side. If you're going to play Ramos central then you need a more defensively solid fullback on his side, this is the obvious option,

Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo

Coentrao goes up to midfield and starts there because he is a million times better than Khedira.

Agreed i was gonna mention that myself , but i didn't want to be the first one saying it for fear of being branded a Madrid hater/ Closet Barca fan Razz

Tbh though that line up still doesnt have a Real Cb, since Pepe alternates between Cb and Dm during Classico's and from what i've observed thus far Pepe's best position is Dm playing that Anchor role in Midfield ( in the event you face Barca or an exceptional side)

Also concerning your Cb partnership it lacks dissipline, as both Ramos and Pepe are targeted by ref's during games. You need something more calm and less erratic, agreed on the Carvalho part, funny though as it was a general consensus ( at one point ) amoung Real fans that Carvalho is one of the best Cb's since last season. He is good, but the Job Mou wants him to do whilst facing Barca and Messi is far beyond him.

I hope this Varane Kid turns out to be something good, since it would keep you from buying a certain Rossoneri Cb that Mou seriously wants to get his hands on Smile

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Post by Giovanni10 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:36 pm

@Rossoneri Ninja wrote:
@Giovanni10 wrote:Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao:

is fantasy nonsense. Only one genuine central defender and one of the fullbacks playing on the wrong side. If you're going to play Ramos central then you need a more defensively solid fullback on his side, this is the obvious option,

Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo

Coentrao goes up to midfield and starts there because he is a million times better than Khedira.

Agreed i was gonna mention that myself , but i didn't want to be the first one saying it for fear of being branded a Madrid hater/ Closet Barca fan Razz

Tbh though that line up still doesnt have a Real Cb, since Pepe alternates between Cb and Dm during Classico's and from what i've observed thus far Pepe's best position is Dm playing that Anchor role in Midfield ( in the event you face Barca or an exceptional side)



Also concerning your Cb partnership it lacks dissipline, as both Ramos and Pepe are targeted by ref's during games. You need something more calm and less erratic, agreed on the Carvalho part, funny though as it was a general consensus ( at one point ) amoung Real fans that Carvalho is one of the best Cb's since last season. He is good, but the Job Mou wants him to do whilst facing Barca and Messi is far beyond him.

I hope this Varane Kid turns out to be something good, since it would keep you from buying a certain Rossoneri Cb that Mou seriously wants to get his hands on Smile

Yeah look, I would love for Varane to be ready for the "big time" but he is just not there yet... He is going to get nailed against opposition like Barca or Atletico now that Falcao is up front for them; including big Uefa level teams

Ideally if Varane were ready, I would go for Ramos-Pepe-Varane-Marcelo.

What is starting to concern me about Ramos lately... almost every classico, David Villa roasts him.... So maybe for Classico:

Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo is the best option
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:49 pm

@Giovanni10 wrote:Marcelo-Ramos-Pepe-Coentrao:

is fantasy nonsense. Only one genuine central defender and one of the fullbacks playing on the wrong side. If you're going to play Ramos central then you need a more defensively solid fullback on his side, this is the obvious option,

Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo

Coentrao goes up to midfield and starts there because he is a million times better than Khedira.

Disagree, there are things is the midfield Khedira does, Coentrao cant achieve tactically. Khedira also plays a big role providing second chances balls to the attack, stop a lot of countering by his positioning. He might not be as good on the ball, but to me, in a traditional game, the role is too deep for Coentrao to play.

As for the defense, I dont mind trying it. Coentrao is just as disciplined of a defender as Arbeloa from what i have seen. He was given a lot of freedom in Benfica but he is also a competent defender. If we are going to defend using work rate rather than individual players, then i am not worrying too much about defending.


People forget that Ramos is a natural CB, and Pepe is the one that isnt. Ramos own mind has been fighting him playing Fullback for a very long time now. He often looks a completely different player when pushed as CB. truth is, both would pair up quite well. Pepe is more effective in a sweeper role than trying to be the enforcer CB. Eventually Varane will make his way there, but the pairing Ramos-Pepe, even with two attacking fullbacks, would work well imo.

Coentrao is showing he can go anywhere and show a lot of discipline in the defending. Your argument is that coentrao is playing on the wrong side, but i can just as much tell you that he isnt a natural DM/CM either. And how can you be willing to have him protect your back four but you dont want to see him playing as a fullback, albeit on the right side?

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Post by Onyx on Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:26 pm

Carvalho should be backup. Either this year or next we should buy a RB.
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Post by futbol_bill on Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:53 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Someone mentioned this in a thread somewhere...

With Marcelo attacking every chance he gets, you're often left with a 3-man defense... Ramos is a RB on paper; but he often has to shift towards the center as Carvalho moves to the left to cover and Pepe also moves a bit over.

Because of this, moving Ramos to CB may be a bad idea. Other than Marcelo, we need the other defenders to be able all play centrally very well.

I agree Sportsczy. I don't mind Ramos playing some CB, but I would prefer his transition to CB to be done gradually over next 2/ 3 years. I think the solution is start giving Varane more and more starts. And possibily starting Coentrao instead of Marcelo would help as well. so basically we have 3 lineups that we can use (and I think we should use all 3 depending upon opposition and player / team chemistry growth.

Ramos Pepe Carvalho Marcelo
Arbeloa Pepe Ramos Coentrao
Ramos Pepe Varane Marcelo
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:58 pm

Having Coentrao on the bench is a HUGE waste of an incredibly talented player.

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Post by guest7 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:00 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Having Coentrao on the bench is a HUGE waste of an incredibly talented player.

Same thing can be said about Marcelo, amirite?
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:06 pm

Arguably, but Coentrao is a better player.

he is the archetype of the modern football. Athletic, disciplined, versatile. How many defenders who can play in the center midfield, on the wings, do you know? and he does well.

fantastic talent we signed, i would play him ahead of Arbeloa in defense until he fails.

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Post by guest7 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:17 pm

It's only you who seem to share the opinion of him being better, granted the only full game I've seen with him where he plays LB is the Nou game, and he didn't impress me one bit. He gave to much space to Pedro, even Goal.com agreed on that and they suck shit when it comes to player ratings, but they noticed it too.

Marcelo has proven he can defend against any top team he goes against, he has defended against Barca, Tottenham (where he roasted Bale) and Lyon (where he was fantastic).

Plus, when he is missing it's noticable, the attack is worse. (and defense IMO) It's a bigger loss to bench Marcelo then it is to bench Coentrao.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:28 pm

lol @ you negging my post, childish stuff.

I'm pretty sure i have been tracking him longer than you guys. I'm pretty sure i know the ins and outs of his game better than most of you here. So forgive me for feeling knowledgeable on the issue.

it only took you one half to decide that Marcelo was a much better player. And it's the only game you keep referring to. you guys compare his first game ever as LB for Real Madrid in a clasico, the most pressure heavy game we have, in a brand new system for him, against a marcelo that spent 3 years playing the position, and you deduce he isnt as good? quite a ridiculous thought process to be honest.

Fanboyism isnt needed here, we should be making the better use of our players.

goal.com sucks shit a player ratings, but when they have ratings that support your rhetoric you trust them? great logic lol

Coentrao defended against Pedro well. You guys act like Marcelo is perfect against them, he got raped by pedro in the past, and afelay the same.

marcelo defended against bale? when? are you counting the times bale ventured on the right? is that where he is famous for? not a productive argument to pimp marcelo with. What Lyon player did he defend? Jimmy briand? lol


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Post by guest7 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:38 pm

Goal.com suck shit when it comes to rating, but they noticed the very thing I noticed and that was that Pedro was eating the left flank from Coentrao. And I'm not judging from one half, plus I've liked Marcelo before his Mou days just so you know.

This hasn't neccesarily to be fanboyism, I can admit that I love Marcelo more than any player on the team, but the points I'm taking up are quite valid, are they not?

Marcelos mistakes weren't a whole game, they were 1 time against Affaley (vs Barca). Whereas Coentraos game in Nou was everytime Pedro was against him. Marcelo has not been having trouble with Pedro, nor Sanchez neither.

Didn't Marcelo defend against Bale? He was positioned on the left but then moved to the right when he got no luck there. And against Lyon, you know it as much as me but Marcelo was fantastic that game. Denying it is miles wrong.

Also the "it was el clasico"-excuse doesn't cut it. He has been playing LB before, it wasn't his first time and he wasn't so shaky when he was moved to the midfield role where he performed better than Khedira. It is a poor excuse IMO
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Post by futbol_bill on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:57 pm

omarish wrote:It's only you who seem to share the opinion of him being better, granted the only full game I've seen with him where he plays LB is the Nou game, and he didn't impress me one bit. He gave to much space to Pedro, even Goal.com agreed on that and they suck shit when it comes to player ratings, but they noticed it too.

Marcelo has proven he can defend against any top team he goes against, he has defended against Barca, Tottenham (where he roasted Bale) and Lyon (where he was fantastic).

Plus, when he is missing it's noticable, the attack is worse. (and defense IMO) It's a bigger loss to bench Marcelo then it is to bench Coentrao.

Wrong, I think it's only you that has the wrong impression about Coentrao capabilities.
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Post by The Madrid One on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:59 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:
omarish wrote:It's only you who seem to share the opinion of him being better, granted the only full game I've seen with him where he plays LB is the Nou game, and he didn't impress me one bit. He gave to much space to Pedro, even Goal.com agreed on that and they suck shit when it comes to player ratings, but they noticed it too.

Marcelo has proven he can defend against any top team he goes against, he has defended against Barca, Tottenham (where he roasted Bale) and Lyon (where he was fantastic).

Plus, when he is missing it's noticable, the attack is worse. (and defense IMO) It's a bigger loss to bench Marcelo then it is to bench Coentrao.

Wrong, I think it's only you that has the wrong impression about Coentrao capabilities.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:02 pm

It's not important for me to know that you like Marcelo, it's not even relevant in the general picture. we arent discussing which players we like, but how good they are.

What bothers me is the fact that you guys are showing no reserve, nor are able to take some distance from the game itself to rate the player. Regardless of how you think he performed, concluding that based on his first ever half as LB, he isnt as good as Marcelo is straight nonsense.

If Marcelo flops his half playing with Brazil against Ghana, and Adriano outperforms him, are we also going to conclude that Adriano is better. The simple sight of such argument will have most of you guys burning the general section.

Barcelona midfield was much better in the second game at feeding their winger, and coentrao had to go on 1v1 versus pedro quite a lot, and he didnt look bad. But here is the thing, playing LB in a brand new team, a brand new system, a brand new dynamic, in a pressure heavy game is no fun. Again, im shocked you guys cant even understand this, Benfica and Real Madrid are nothing alike. The pressure makes it harder to make the transition, and no matter who you are, there is a transition you need to make. you cant expect a player to go from one team to the next and just have a stellar performance, it doesnt quite work like that.

Marcelo looked like shit in november against pedro then he adjusted... It's not an excuse, it's a simple fact of football. The same logic that have us understand that when changing squad every season doesnt your improve chances to success, applies here. I have seen greater player changing teams and not having good performances in their first game.

Marcelo had a great game against Lyon, but who was he playing against? Briand and Reveillere, good layers, not top players, that's the least we expect from Marcelo, they were more worried about defending Marcelo than attacking him. Bale is NOT a right winger, so you get no merit from somewhat defending him on the right, which is not his natural position.

Im sorry to see you guys using so much shortcuts in logic and arguments just to rate some players and force your rhetoric through.

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Post by guest7 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:07 pm

Blah, I can't believe I'm discussing if we Coentrao should replace Marcelo or not... Last season he was the best LB in the world by Madristas now he is not close to it becouse Coentrao is here.

Not even gonna bother, I'd much rather take it on the pitch. I said it before and I'm gonna say it again, I truly hope Coentrao gets to play at the LB role, not becouse I want him to replace Marcelo but so it can stop people from believing Coentrao is better. I'm confident Marcelo is the better player.

Kinda know how Higuain fanboys feel now.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:14 pm

omarish wrote:Blah, I can't believe I'm discussing if we Coentrao should replace Marcelo or not... Last season he was the best LB in the world by Madristas now he is not close to it becouse Coentrao is here.

Not even gonna bother, I'd much rather take it on the pitch. I said it before and I'm gonna say it again, I truly hope Coentrao gets to play at the LB role, not becouse I want him to replace Marcelo but so it can stop people from believing Coentrao is better. I'm confident Marcelo is the better player.

Kinda know how Higuain fanboys feel now.

you are the only one arguing that.

You guys have decided that Coentrao is no good because you didnt like his performance against barca.

who voted him the best LB in the world? that's a fabrication of your mind. I certainly never called him such. And no one is saying that he isnt as good as Coentrao, I certainly didnt wait for Coentrao to come here to rate him above marcelo. Fyi, i rate both about the same, and like i said, Coentrao is a better all around footballer.

Again, nothing to do with Fanboyism, you seem to be hung up on that. What were you doing last season when Coentrao was performing as LB? you werent watching him of course.

I was arguing about Coentrao being tried out on the right, btw, not the Left. But i guess just the mention of Coentrao being better footballer than marcelo woke in you the fanboy instinct and you started arguing about who is the better LB, based on one game, hence going off topic.


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Post by S32TABLANCA on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:25 pm

I believe that Nick may be getting so pissed because of me, when I brought up that Coentrao was not good as LB in the game, because you keep referring to 'you guys' when only Omarish and I spoke up about this.

But I didnt say that Coentrao is a bad LB, I know better than that, I dont think anybody is insinuating any of the stuff you are saying, Nick, just that in that one half of the Supercopa 2nd leg, Coentrao was very bad. He can still beat Marcelo and take the LB spot from him, I aknowledge it was a hard situation. So I dont see the need for this.

On the other hand, if this is just a personal argument between you two, by all means carry on. Smile
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