Re: The Racism Thread

[Thimmy]

I’m sure there are many factors that play in to it, but lack of information as well as a lack of multi-culturalism are probably the main ones. Not being informed or judged for blatant racism, creates an environment where being racist is not so much considered to be a big deal. Ironically, where I grew up, people typically didn’t feel restricted in talking down Eastern European immigrants because race was not a factor, and there was less education regarding discrimination or xenophobia towards white people.

[Nishankly]

----

I have been racially profiled at Tallinn airport in Estonia. I was the only brown person in the flight and the only one that called into a room for a security check during domestic travel within EU. I had a couple of instances in Budapest as well where I was singled out in clubs by security just to confirm even though I hadn't even had my first drink

Even for me. I have travelled to 20+ countries. Lived 2.5 years in France and 6 months in Singapore not one incident of racism. But Estonia on arrival and Budapest on entering clubs. So yeah it's an Eastern European thing IMO

[Myesyats]

Eastern Europe now is like France in 1980s, 90s when a vast majority of citizens thought there were 'too many Arabs' in there country. I think Communism is, again, at fault here. People who were raised in the Soviet Union were formed to be that way.

Another issue that stems from that system is how people view business owners in post communist countries. They were raised and molded in a time where the gvmnt owned everything and were taught that private owners are thieves. Now many people still think that way, they don't understand that business owners and entrepreneurs are the ones fueling the economy and there's this conviction that they stole everything they have and don't deserve their wealth.

[Robespierre]

It's enough to see also football, you can't find ultras from Eastern Europe who aren't so.Yes I know also Italy etc but I mean it seems ""normal"".
Racism/Xenophobia etc is a common problem in former Communist problem.
AFD is relevant only in Eastern landers ( former DDR landers, it makes idea properly) , where you can even find neonazists, an impossible thing in the rest of Germany. Although I think there is also a differemt cultural basis , BRD stood a cultural  process  of expiation called Vergangenheitsbewältigung ( there is a Wikipedia page for who cares) , while DDR not, because it proclaimed itself as a new state (while BRD was the "heir state" of Third Reich), recuperating Prussian elements and throwing away the Nazi responsibilities to his Western cousins . So , while a part of Germany looked at the past as way to build the future, they haven't never faced that responsability.

Anyway, extending the matter on other Eastern places,  these countries have been forcedly closed for years.  
It had ripercussions on demography. Places like Poland or Hungary are among the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the EU. ( Poland is this since Post-war,because before there were many Jews).
So, at least I suppose, not used  to live with foreign people from Africa or the Middle East.
This sense of closure has forged the National identity , and it happens when  inhabitants need to " redifine theirselves".  
That's happened for example after implosion of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and its subsequent divisions .
When it was necessary to build an identity, it has been done with what it was available: the native population, the church and its values.
In fact on these countries we must also consider the  influence of the Church ( - whether it be Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant - which in Eastern Europe has a widespread presence, and it is often welded with the most conservative fringes of society .
It is this in Poland.

In part it is nationalism, in part it is a fixed thought to be halfway between two situations , the Orient and the Occident. It is this in Hungary.
They are a particular folk. Nor part of the great Slavic world, neither of the Latin one.
They have a unique tongue, of ungro-Finnish stock. A very long history of dominations and. divisions, dangers. They have never been too amalgamable  with the Habsburg history, yet the union has lasted so long. They have always hated the Russians , and not just for 1956.
I 've even read a poll where it was reported that 59% of Hungarian ppl have never travelled towards another European country.
I'd dare say not so surprised Orban consensus there and even Jobbik.
Anyway it's important to underline, as just yesterday, Orban 's party have lost largely  in Budapest in favour of a Karácsony-  his surname means : Christmas, but it is not the only way to hope in a change.
First of all, Hungarian campany was fought with  moderate statements of mutual respect and best wishes. It should be normal but not in Hungary, where you always get a very aggressive election campaign. Moreover his first words were promising , talking about  a new course for Budapest  who  will lead city  to be a fully European and modern city.
Best wishes.

[McLewis]

Super post, Robes.

Specifically, the bit on homogeneity really hits the nail on the head. There are small towns (villages, really) here in the Midwest of the US that are still 100% white. These are very isolated towns, often 40-50 miles away from the nearest even mildly populated city so the exposure to different cultures is very limited, often only from what's seen on TV. This is where stereotypes are born and when applying those stereotypes due to a lack of interaction with cultures become racist.

Regarding Orban, I commented on a Twitter post of a story about him apparently trying to enact policies in Hungary that effectively add up to trying to keep the country ethnically Hungarian (basically white) by discouraging Hungarians from having children with foreigners in order to keep the culture pure. I called this out as racism and got inundated with hate tweets by (what I assume to be) right-wing Hungarians. They don't see this action as racist. They see it as a matter of survival in a world that is becoming increasingly multi-cultural. They didn't seem to understand that a kid who is half-African, Half-Hungarian, but is still born and raised in Hungary can carry on that historical culture of that country. They fear that culture being interwoven with other cultures, creating what they consider to be impurity. It's an obsession that I don't really understand as I live in a melting pot full of different cultures.

[Myesyats]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

[Nishankly]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

[Nishankly]

Meanwhile Europeans trusting Indian business

it's a miracle.... pic.twitter.com/JgUUHzteqn

— Merle (@Merle_Mienie) October 14, 2019

[Young Kaz]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

I think losing you is a lot worse for a developing country than losing shopkeeper. Brain drain a true issue.

[Nishankly]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

I think losing you is a lot worse for a developing country than losing shopkeeper. Brain drain a true issue.

Look, i understand. But again, a shopkeeper will get a PR before me in Holland, Belgium, France or Germany.

I mean I hate it, but even Adit answered it in 2009, low labor >>> Others aka me

[CBarca]

Super post, Robes.

Specifically, the bit on homogeneity really hits the nail on the head. There are small towns (villages, really) here in the Midwest of the US that are still 100% white. These are very isolated towns, often 40-50 miles away from the nearest even mildly populated city so the exposure to different cultures is very limited, often only from what's seen on TV. This is where stereotypes are born and when applying those stereotypes due to a lack of interaction with cultures become racist.

Regarding Orban, I commented on a Twitter post of a story about him apparently trying to enact policies in Hungary that effectively add up to trying to keep the country ethnically Hungarian (basically white) by discouraging Hungarians from having children with foreigners in order to keep the culture pure. I called this out as racism and got inundated with hate tweets by (what I assume to be) right-wing Hungarians. They don't see this action as racist. They see it as a matter of survival in a world that is becoming increasingly multi-cultural. They didn't seem to understand that a kid who is half-African, Half-Hungarian, but is still born and raised in Hungary can carry on that historical culture of that country. They fear that culture being interwoven with other cultures, creating what they consider to be impurity. It's an obsession that I don't really understand as I live in a melting pot full of different cultures.

I've actually just got a job as a teacher at a high school here in WI for a school that's somewhere around 95% white. The town probably reflects those demographics. It's no more than 25 miles away from the capital of WI, Madison.

These folks are not too far from Madison (which is also super white, but much better than the towns and suburbs that surround it), and yet I see a lot of ignorant behavior. To be sure, these are teenagers without much life experience. However, it's clear to me to see the effect that living in such a town has on them: they don't really interact with race. In fact, they're raised to think that it is no big deal. I empathize, because I was raised the same way.

I think this is ultimately the great fallacy and the biggest issue in race, and something that I see on this forum a lot. The perception that if you don't consider race, you can't be racist. No, you must consider race. It is a fact of life for so many... it is the privilege of someone with white skin to perceive race as something that can be disregarded.

Now I do think there are limits to this. On the other hand, I see Betty label everyone and everything constantly, or if you read James Blake's (musical artist) piece on mental illness, it's clear that he has issues with respect to his identity that revolve around this constant labeling of this and that and who has privilege and doesn't. I have always thought you can go too far.

But I recall my ignorance before I came to university (I'm still highly ignorant, IMO) and began to form strong friendships with different people of color, women, and sexual orientation, and I look back on it and am reminded of the students I see every day. Who, while I haven't heard it (because I wouldn't allow such a thing), I think would say a great many racist things "as a joke" to their friends because it's funny. And with everyone being white, what is their to lose, for them?

[Unique]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

in england we have a mixed bag on who runs the shops and the extreamists are all shapes sizes and colours but are 99.9% the same religion. i do see that people that work in petrol garages are mostly indian i think that is due to them being willing to work shity hours though.

[McLewis]

Imagine living in a 99.9% white country. I admire the couple Indian guys who run a kebab shop near me because it's very likely they're the only people of color in a town of 24k.

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

I think losing you is a lot worse for a developing country than losing shopkeeper. Brain drain a true issue.

Look, i understand. But again, a shopkeeper will get a PR before me in Holland, Belgium, France or Germany.

I mean I hate it, but even Adit answered it in 2009, low labor >>> Others aka me

Beyond the "that's just how it is" reasoning, why do you think it is that these countries are more willing to take a lower skilled immigrant than someone with more developed skills such as yourself?

[McLewis]

Super post, Robes.

Specifically, the bit on homogeneity really hits the nail on the head. There are small towns (villages, really) here in the Midwest of the US that are still 100% white. These are very isolated towns, often 40-50 miles away from the nearest even mildly populated city so the exposure to different cultures is very limited, often only from what's seen on TV. This is where stereotypes are born and when applying those stereotypes due to a lack of interaction with cultures become racist.

Regarding Orban, I commented on a Twitter post of a story about him apparently trying to enact policies in Hungary that effectively add up to trying to keep the country ethnically Hungarian (basically white) by discouraging Hungarians from having children with foreigners in order to keep the culture pure. I called this out as racism and got inundated with hate tweets by (what I assume to be) right-wing Hungarians. They don't see this action as racist. They see it as a matter of survival in a world that is becoming increasingly multi-cultural. They didn't seem to understand that a kid who is half-African, Half-Hungarian, but is still born and raised in Hungary can carry on that historical culture of that country. They fear that culture being interwoven with other cultures, creating what they consider to be impurity. It's an obsession that I don't really understand as I live in a melting pot full of different cultures.

I've actually just got a job as a teacher at a high school here in WI for a school that's somewhere around 95% white. The town probably reflects those demographics. It's no more than 25 miles away from the capital of WI, Madison.

These folks are not too far from Madison (which is also super white, but much better than the towns and suburbs that surround it), and yet I see a lot of ignorant behavior. To be sure, these are teenagers without much life experience. However, it's clear to me to see the effect that living in such a town has on them: they don't really interact with race. In fact, they're raised to think that it is no big deal. I empathize, because I was raised the same way.

I think this is ultimately the great fallacy and the biggest issue in race, and something that I see on this forum a lot. The perception that if you don't consider race, you can't be racist. No, you must consider race. It is a fact of life for so many... it is the privilege of someone with white skin to perceive race as something that can be disregarded.

Now I do think there are limits to this. On the other hand, I see Betty label everyone and everything constantly, or if you read James Blake's (musical artist) piece on mental illness, it's clear that he has issues with respect to his identity that revolve around this constant labeling of this and that and who has privilege and doesn't. I have always thought you can go too far.

But I recall my ignorance before I came to university (I'm still highly ignorant, IMO) and began to form strong friendships with different people of color, women, and sexual orientation, and I look back on it and am reminded of the students I see every day. Who, while I haven't heard it (because I wouldn't allow such a thing), I think would say a great many racist things "as a joke" to their friends because it's funny. And with everyone being white, what is their to lose, for them?

So my senior year of high school, I lived out in rural Illinois. My graduating class was like 30 people and the whole ceremony took an hour. Super small town with a school building that housed all 12 grades. I was the only black student. There wasn't even mixed students just a lot of white students.....and me. While I fortunately never experienced direct racism from anyone during that year, I was always aware that it was a distinct possibility. For instance, a question that I got asked is "Do I consider Akon a rapper?".....it was amusing to watch the surprise on their faces when I told them I don't really know, I'm more of a System of a Down guy (that was the phase I was going through at the time). I like to think that I made friends from that exchange not because of liking SOAD or not really being interested in hip hop/r&B, but by dispelling the stereotype that just because I'm black, that gives me some magical ability to determine what's rap and what's not. It told them that I'm pretty much no different than they are.

It amuses me to think what would've happened if I had attempted to actually answer that question. I think it would've opened up a can of worms of racial stereotypes.

[Young Kaz]

Lets try it this way, imagine being uneducated, not being able to find a source of income in your home country, using labor laws moving abroad, to start a business that isn't even native to your home country, in a place that's 99.9% white with offers that are Arabians.

These are the real heroes. They might be Indian in this example but its not them.

Then there's me. I am Indian, I have traveled to 20+ countries, I can deploy a strategy globally to ensure that a multi-million dollar company can ensure profits across continents, but me? I won't get a visa, while that guy who runs a Kebab store? He will get a Permanent Residency tomorrow. This is how the world works. The lower your skill, easier the visa and this exactly why people look down upon people from the East. They think we are doing small jobs just to emigrate while most of us are becoming CEOs of western companies. It will hit them one day when the global business shifts to Asia but as for now, I couldn't care.

This is how you (Not necessarily you) as a European thinks every Indian is a shopkeeper and every Arab is either a kebab owner or an extremist.

I think losing you is a lot worse for a developing country than losing shopkeeper. Brain drain a true issue.

Look, i understand. But again, a shopkeeper will get a PR before me in Holland, Belgium, France or Germany.

I mean I hate it, but even Adit answered it in 2009, low labor >>> Others aka me

People who need it most get an opportunity to come and work there.

Honestly isnt school like Free in Most of Europe? There seems like there would be a plethora of people with business degrees to do such work....and with much less hassle of having to fill out immigration papers to sponsor. Of course if you were cheaper it would be a better option. Do you work for the same wages as a person from that nation here?

I know in America we import Engineers from India and China, and then underpay them knowing long as we are doing the sponsoring they cant leave.

[McLewis]

A hell of a summation of racism from a thread I reading on reddit regarding Hristo Stoichkov's reaction to the England-Bulgaria incident:

Melicalol 92 points -  21 hours ago
We all know racism is arrogant people being ignorant. You can still be arrogant, but ignorance can change with knowledge.

For context, this was the response to someone sarcastically stating that a person who was racist a long time ago (Stoichkov in this particular case) can't possibly change between the time of the incident and the present.

[Nishankly]

Beyond the "that's just how it is" reasoning, why do you think it is that these countries are more willing to take a lower skilled immigrant than someone with more developed skills such as yourself?

I would have addressed that rather than just ranting if I had my head wrapped around a logical answer that I can come to terms with. I understand I came across as some who is belittling others and their work (I am an arse) but I am very triggered about this subject as a whole which makes me very rude :/

[Myesyats]

Bruh I heard asian people are the most racist. Even towards other asians. Tbh I can see that looking at Betty's posts.

Would love to learn more about that.

[Nishankly]

Bruh I heard asian people are the most racist. Even towards other asians. Tbh I can see that looking at Betty's posts.

Would love to learn more about that.

They are but its mostly because of Western influence from the colonial era (where white is always better, why do you feel skin fairness industries biggest market is Asia where as the tanning market is biggest in America) and current fighting between religions and within religions. Then you have the language differences. German is spoken by the whole country where as India probably has 45 languages spoken by the same amount of people.

If you meant Asians as in China, Japan etc, I don't know about that, probably because their culture is the farthest way from the rest of globe. Sepp or Zigra can help us a bit on this with a neutral perspective tbh

[Young Kaz]

Bruh I heard asian people are the most racist. Even towards other asians. Tbh I can see that looking at Betty's posts.

Would love to learn more about that.

Out of all the years I have been on here this is the first I have ever seen you want to learn about Asians. You only want to to learn about the majority of the world's population just to see how they hate?

Also I'd rather be an ethnic minority in Japan than Poland

Tens of thousand of white supremacists marched thru the streets of Poland this week, chanting Nazi slogans about committing genocide against the "non-white" population...

In 2017

But WE are "race baiting" for pointing this out https://t.co/KnefIXpGQl

— Tariq Nasheed (@tariqnasheed) November 12, 2017

[Nishankly]

Betty, it is true so maybe explain your side rather throwing stuff on other people's face?

We know India has a various languages, religions and skin colors, there is internal racism regarding that. China discriminates with their Muslims in the West. Japan has its own story. Middle East has their own continous story. Singapore and Malaysia is constantly at each other's throats.

It's not a competition lmao

[Young Kaz]

Betty, it is true so maybe explain your side rather throwing stuff on other people's face?

We know India has a various languages, religions and skin colors, there is internal racism regarding that. China discriminates with their Muslims in the West. Japan has its own story. Middle East has their own continous story. Singapore and Malaysia is constantly at each other's throats.

It's not a competition lmao

Its not true.

The Assertion that Asians are the "Most racist" on a forum for a sport where black players cant even play in Europe without having ape chants made is quite simply absurd. Do you have ANY idea what would happen to a Chinese citizen caught racially abusing an international player, much less a star, at a football match? They would be beaten with a stick. Literally.


Humans are racist, but you cant call Asians more racist because there are websites and rallies upon thousands if one Souh Asian touches a European woman. European Pensioners run amuck in Asia abusing women and Asians never EVER judge all Europeans based on what their sick brothers, in the thousands, do in Asia.

You can ask Bellabong on here who holds down half Asians! When racist white men, who cant get white women, settle for mentally ill self hating Asian women who befriends their kids? Its not white people. Even look at Elliot Rodger. He laid up in an apartment with Asians because we accepted him as a human, and not a half subhuman the way his other half did. For this love and respect we were the first people he killed.

Asians are no more racist than anybody else, and if you look around are some of the most accepting people the world has ever seen. Some of the biggest Asian movies like Wolf Warrior explicit has a hero saving and helping Africa and Africans.  This  thought is just hogwash to get the groups fighting so one group can maintain their power.

[Nishankly]

I meant by Asians being racists against other Asians. I thought it was pretty obvious that the most racist part need not to be addressed.

[Myesyats]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/japan-racism-survey-reveals-one-in-three-foreigners-experience-discrimination

Japan racism survey reveals one in three foreigners experience discrimination



It's not my opinion, okay? Can you read? I've heard Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, Filipino people say that about themselves and neighboring countries.

Also, Japan sounds pretty damn racist.

[Myesyats]

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/most-racist-countries/

According to the findings of this research-based inquiry, the most racist country on Earth is India, followed by Lebanon, Bahrain, Libya, and Egypt. (Japan is up there)


It may shock you but white countries aren't the most racist ones. Of course, believe what you want to believe....

[Young Kaz]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/japan-racism-survey-reveals-one-in-three-foreigners-experience-discrimination

Japan racism survey reveals one in three foreigners experience discrimination



It's not my opinion, okay? Can you read? I've heard Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, Filipino people say that about themselves and neighboring countries.

Also, Japan sounds pretty damn racist.

What number of foreigners would say the same for Poland?

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