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Post by Freeza on Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:51 pm

The Griezmann incident has been discussed plenty.

I think the main point is that you shouldn't paint your face black, because it makes a mockery of black people. It does so because you find them to be novelty that you dress up as, while they in society does not have the same rights and security in reality as white people do.

Dressing up as a black person shows a lot about how you find them novel and you don't really care about their struggles.

Cultural appropriation is also a real thing that has often been misinterpreted imo. There's nothing wrong with engaging in culture, wearing that culture's clothes when traveling etc. The problem is that, in America in particular, such a large part of the culture is created by a part of the population who face discrimination more than the part who wants to engage in that same culture. It becomes a problem, when people want to engage in their culture, but they don't want to fight for the rights of the people who create the culture.

It's like JID rapped in Medidate
JID wrote:Okay, everybody wanna be a nigga, but nobody wanna be a nigga when it's time to be a nigga
Johnny Venus wrote: Asians like, "That's my nigga"
Latins like, "That's my nigga"
White folks like, "That's my nigga"
'Til it's time to die, bye, bye, nigga
__
Sure, in an ideal world without racism etc. there wouldn't be a problem in mimicking another race. It can be done without racist intentions, but it's inherently a product of a racist system that we're still trying to evolve out of.

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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:02 pm

@Freeza wrote:
I think the main point is that you shouldn't paint your face black, because it makes a mockery of black people. It does so because you find them to be novelty that you dress up as, while they in society does not have the same rights and security in reality as white people do.

Dressing up as a black person shows a lot about how you find them novel and you don't really care about their struggles

This shows my point. Its ridiculous to project this single experience onto everyone. This is your society. This is now my society as well, so I wouldn't do it. It's not everyone's though.

You outline a set of reasons to do it, and a set of societal rules. Within those you define, it's bad to do it. Now if you step out of that frame it can change.

Before I moved to the US I never heard the term blackface or anything to do with it. Kids went to a costume party dressed in whichever way they wanted and no one cared. Growing up in a mixed race family, in a very mixed race country, going to a very mixed race school, these things didnt exist.

There was no racial struggle, no novelty in black or white since most every one had a bit of both. Common to have nicknames based on race and looks (black, white, blond, red haired, whatever) and there was nothing offensive about it. So if a kid dressed up as Michael Jordan or as Oliver Khan, people gave 0 notice.

Knowing what I know now, if I went back to visit would I call any of this kids racist or call it a racist act? No. Different cultural context. It is not inherently bad.
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Post by Unique on Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:14 pm

City's Bernardo Silva is being investigated for racism for a picture he posted of Mendy and little black cartoon character. Mendy saw it as a joke but a lot of people are losing their minds about it. I haven't found out all the details of the story I just saw the headlines

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Post by McLewis on Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:37 pm

I'll take this piece by piece.

@rincon wrote:I dont see what is inherently racist about dressing up as someone of a different ethnicity. Not every country has the same history with costumes and face painting as the US. It can be done well, for fun, or it can poorly and for racist reasons. It's not all the same, its illogical to think it HAS to be the same. That, I say with my cultural upbringing of course, and that's the whole point. It's different for you, and both of our views are valid because they are made and applied in different contexts.


Canada's proximity to the US meant that while Canadians of that time were significantly less racist than the Jim Crow South, minstrel shows still occurred, which means they were a party to black people (most of which were escaped slaves who saw this country as their new home) being exploited and mocked. As an educated Canadian of significant privilege, Trudeau should've known this and yet in his arrogance, it was assumed that he could do this and no one would care. He now knows how wrong that thought process was/is.

@rincon wrote:Claiming that because it's the age of information, one should know better than to do certain things that will offend a different culture, on a different continent, to me is extremely arrogant. So because there is a history of something in the US, I am now banned from doing a harmless inoffensive act in Italy or in Venezuela? If we go down this path then no one will be able to do anything within their own cultures because someone 10000 km away has a different cultural upbringing. Note, I dont mean to be insensitive about racist issues, but to say that the issues take different shapes in different cultures. One should be aware not to offend through ignorance those in our environments, but we cant account for every culture on the planet and their different sensibilities when we dont interact with them.


Italians are not banned from doing blackface. Let me make that perfectly clear. No one is "banned" from doing it. There is no way to "ban" this action. However, let's also not make the mistake of assuming Italians will be free from criticism from black people (like me) who see it as insensitive and racist, regardless of intent. Now context can be given and if a black person (who is not me) chooses to then accept that instance of blackface, that's on them. As I said, my stance on blackface simply won't ever change. I am normally very reluctant to say "never" or "ever" when it comes my personality, but this is something I'm 100% certain on. Blackface will always trigger a visceral reaction, regardless of whether it was meant to be harmless or not. We are who we are and I know myself well enough to know this is a core part of my personality that will never change.


@rincon wrote:It's basically the opposite of cultural appropriation, its cultural imperialism. If one is offended because of our unique cultural baggage about an otherwise inoffensive act made in a different country, then I'm sorry but that's a private thing.


Agreed in principle. My absolute, clear hatred of blackface, in all shapes, forms, intents, purposes and context, is entirely my own, personal belief. Other black people are entirely free to disagree with me on this and I'm sure many do. This is just where I am personally, however. Whatever label gets put to that isn't really something I'm going to concern myself with.

@rincon wrote:I remember when Griezmann dressed up as a globetrotter. Griezmann is an idiot but I dont see any racism in that. We mustn't be instantly triggered to think the worst of someone, by projecting our own experiences on to them. It is of course natural that a black person from the US would feel offended at Greizmann, yet that's not the same as calling him a racist. It is a cultural difference and a bit of stupidity sprinkled in from his side.


Frankly, I wasn't even aware of this incident until you brought it to my attention. Having took a bit of time away from this post to familiarize myself with it, I don't think Griezemann is an idiot. He's ignorant, but not stupid. That seems to be a common theme of a lot of non-American white people when it comes to their admiration of black people. I personally choose not to excuse ignorance in these incidents, but again that's me, not all black people.

@rincon wrote:If I ask most members of my extended family (really all of them except maybe 4 of us in my age range) what is a minstrel show, none of them would know. None of them would take offense at any of this face painting either. And they are a very ethnically diverse group of people. Black, indigenous venezuelan, spanish and italian thrown in there.

A personal anecdote is just that...a personal anecdote. It's great that black members of your family are not offended by this stuff. Hell, I wish I had their patience and open-mindedness on this issue. I wish I could just laugh it off. Then I remember my ancestors. As I said, there are just some things we inherently know to be true about ourselves. This is one of those things for me.

@rincon wrote:Racism is racism? Yes. Now who gets to define what is racism? It changes in every culture. Within reason, there flexibilities and a spectrum here. Intention does matter, as does the severity of the act of course.

I see absolutely no acceptable reason for a non-black person to smear themselves with black paint on their face and act like they "believe" black people act or to throw bananas at black people or to chant monkey noises at them. Absolutely none. I'm 100% inflexible on this.
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Post by rincon on Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:01 pm

I didn't defend Trudeau, of course I agree with all that about him and Canada.

My anecdote is just as valid as yours. That's the point. When interacting with people across the world the realities are different, and saying "there is no acceptable reason for..." can lose it's meaning. There should be room to acknowledge these differences. Sensitive things though, to each their own in the end.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:28 pm

@McLewis wrote:
See, I'm not white so my thoughts on White Chicks aren't, of course, as strong as they are on blackface. Personally, I didn't care for the movie myself because it opens the door to white people (particularly of the American persuasion) thinking it's ok to do blackface by using White Chicks as the justification for it. It opens a can of worms that just isn't a road we should be going down as a society.

I'm not sure whether you think that I'm trying to argue with you, I'm not hmm
And what you wrote corresponds with what I wrote, to the point that I, as I said, don't have any strong feelings about White Chicks either. The way I remember, it's not a particularly good movie, but my point was, no white person should be offended by it, nor use it, in the way you describe, to justify racism. via false equivalencies.
@McLewis wrote:
Given that you say that not every instance of an ethnicity painting their faces to resemble another ethnicity is racist, I'm curious: What are these seemingly legitimate instances where such as practice is accepted by general society, including the ethnicity being portrayed?


I don't know. I'm feeling like in theory there should be some, but it's possible that in reality there arent' any.

I'm not sure. I like the "Party" with Peter Sellers a lot, I don't view it as particularly racist, but I can't deny that it might well ultimately be on some level and I wouldn't be surprised if Indian people find it offensive.
That said, there's a benevolency about it which I think should be ok. If people are benevolent with each other, stereotypes can be some sort of communication, that can be improved upon .

I think we should allow for some complexity when judging people doing stuff.

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Post by Warrior on Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:40 pm

@Warrior wrote:Anybody who have an ounce of judgement can differentiate a racist mockery from a simple Halloween costume hmm i don't see why we should put everyone on the same boat
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Post by McLewis on Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:31 pm

@Warrior wrote:
@Warrior wrote:Anybody who have an ounce of judgement can differentiate a racist mockery from a simple Halloween costume hmm i don't see why we should put everyone on the same boat


This is not something I'm capable of explaining to you in an objective way. I'm far too biased. You're going to need to wonder out loud about this to a black person who has significantly more more objectivity on this subject than I do. If/when you do, I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts.
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Post by Warrior on Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:27 pm

As if people don't recognize the sufferings your ancestors have been through ?
Or you think they are only using the stereotypes as costumes ?

I understand you have a blockage about blackface, it's obvious why you have it, but as you say i can't understand why you have it to this extent. If i was you i would try not hold a grudge of people who display ignorance rather than true racism. But fair enough, i'm just glad you now hate Justin Trudeau.

TV made interviews in Montreal in a haitian neighborhood, and everybody said they forgive him for it. There is also Dany Laferriere a famous author who won various prizes, he said this whole "scandal" is bs, a thing of white politicians Laughing But then again they are not from USA like you
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Post by Vibe on Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:02 pm

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Just saw this on TV, the most blatant use of whiteface

Very racialist
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Post by McLewis on Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:10 pm

@Warrior wrote:As if people don't recognize the sufferings your ancestors have been through ?
Or you think they are only using the stereotypes as costumes ?

I understand you have a blockage about blackface, it's obvious why you have it, but as you say i can't understand why you have it to this extent. If i was you i would try not hold a grudge of people who display ignorance rather than true racism. But fair enough, i'm just glad you now hate Justin Trudeau.

TV made interviews in Montreal in a haitian neighborhood, and everybody said they forgive him for it. There is also Dany Laferriere a famous author who won various prizes, he said this whole "scandal" is bs, a thing of white politicians Laughing But then again they are not from USA like you


Well I don't hate anyone. That's a very strong emotion and this, as bad as it is, doesn't meet that threshold.

I can try not to hold grudges, but that won't always be the case. I just know myself well enough to know what I can and can't tolerate. Blackface is in the latter category.

Haitians have a very different history with slavery than American slaves do so this isn't quite a like-for-like comparison. That said, good on them for forgiving him.

Like I said though, I think my reaction would've been the same if this was someone in Eastern Europe, South America, Australia, etc doing this, but I consider it significantly more offensive when someone that shares a border with us and especially given Canada's prominent part as the terminus for the Underground Railroad. That's what was so startling about this to me, at least. If he was dirt poor and uneducated, maybe ignorance could be an excuse (even then I wouldn't accept it), but he's wealthy, highly educated and comes from Canadian political royalty. He lacks for nothing and that has been the way it's been all his life. He has no credible excuse in my eyes.
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Post by Zagadka on Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:49 pm

Trudeau's approval rating or Liberal's polling has barely changed since this "scandal".

So it's obvious that most people don't really care about racism or insensitivity, they only care if they're done by the "wrong" people.

Trudeau will cruise to a second term....but I'm glad debate CAN will have Bernier on the debate next week with JT, Scheer, Singh and May. I think Bernier will go hard after Scheer, further splitting the Con votes, while May and Singh will go after Trudeau.

May actually wake up super early here to watch it Very Happy
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Post by Arquitecto on Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:37 pm

Warrior I do not disagree with a thing you said and you've handled yourself very well in this debate but let it be known McLewis, who is usually a very objective and reasonable being, has admitted this particular case comes down to an introspective principle he refuses to budge on, therefore an exception and I do not see that core foundation being shaken on this but as I can see you've come to terms with that amicably.

I would argue the same with him but similar to the now growing acceptance of pedophillia and how pedophiles are victims, that is one argument I will never accept no matter how advanced or reasonable its movement is no matter how many perspectives change.

So it further is acceptable to have those few exceptions in our reasoning when it comes to certain things.

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Post by Arquitecto on Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:42 pm

As for Trudeau himself he is not racist by any means but if one puts a scope on his whole life and just overall Justin himself, he is not to be taken very seriously as a Prime Minister let alone any position of true merit or worth and subsequently provides very little that is interesting to analyse and critique and will not be remembered at all as he fades away in Canadian history.

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Post by futbol_bill on Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:58 pm

Just a comment re Canadian election. Trudeau has been hurt far more with legal interference (two cases, both in support of his government's corruption). However what he has going for him, besides managing to keep most of these two scandals from public, is the public are not accepting the opposition (Conservatives), plus there two niche parties (NDP (Socialists - even more to left than the liberals) and Green (single issue platform) that will get maybe 5-10% each.

Results will be a minority whether Trudeau is booted out or not. This whole blackface issue is more of same, him looking for photo ops than anything. It doesn't help his reelection bid, but his majority days are over.

Best result would be a conservative minority, but it will likely be a Liberal majority. He can still reasonably continue his agenda as the two minor parties are socialists.
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Post by Warrior on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:12 pm

Trudeau re-elected :facepalm:

Bloc did well, they made a correct campaign after all, i regret my previous opinion that it was a dead party

As you can see the country is divided, liberals (in red) won Toronto & Montreal which was sufficient to win overall. Yet they lost on % of votes, it's a proof that canadian voting system needs a revamp.

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Post by Nishankly on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:43 pm

https://www.conservative.ca/media/documents/Policy-Declaration-Feb-2014.pdf

Not sure if this is their official account but lmao
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Post by Warrior on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:57 pm

Of course it's the official account Laughing

Here's the highlights of the debate as you can see the conservative leader is quite savage


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Post by CBarca on Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:02 am

@Warrior wrote:Trudeau re-elected :facepalm:

Bloc did well, they made a correct campaign after all, i regret my previous opinion that it was a dead party

As you can see the country is divided, liberals (in red) won Toronto & Montreal which was sufficient to win overall. Yet they lost on % of votes, it's a proof that canadian voting system needs a revamp.

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Can you explain what you mean by he won but lost on % of votes?

Do you mean he won but only by a plurality, not a majority?

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Post by Warrior on Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 am

In Canada the land is separated in districts. I believe it's mostly based on population density so a sector like Montreal, about 2M population on a island will have 25 districts. While the whole province of Alberta 5M will have the same amount of districts.

Conservatives (dark blue) won the popular vote by +1.4% but these are heavily concentrated in provinces with low amount of districts. Now Fraudeau's liberals have been re-elected because they won the big cities where the immense majority of the recent immigrants live and they feel they have a debt over him.

Right: Conservatives is the only serious option
Left: split between liberals, neo-democrats or greens depending of which level of socialist you are

It's a minority government, but quite close to a majority. Need 170 seats and they got 157. Yet they are actually the second choice of canadians Laughing
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Post by iftikhar on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:35 pm

Why are you still stuck with this monstrous and scandalous FPTP shit??? Love for the Queen and Commonwealth, eh???
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Post by Nishankly on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:53 pm

@Warrior wrote:Of course it's the official account Laughing

Here's the highlights of the debate as you can see the conservative leader is quite savage




Link to the host's instagram, she's so attractive. On topic, what a horrible debate but this 200000000% times better than the Indian ones where only the moderator shouts at everyone and no one speaks.

Edit: Althia Raj. She's of Indian descent :fishing:
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Post by Warrior on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:11 am

Now i don't have anything against canadians as persons, but when i see this, i want to fuck off away from them

Just mind your own business ffs

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/toronto-calls-for-national-campaign-to-condemn-quebecs-bill-21
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Post by Unique on Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:48 pm

@Warrior wrote:Now i don't have anything against canadians as persons, but when i see this, i want to fuck off away from them

Just mind your own business ffs

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/toronto-calls-for-national-campaign-to-condemn-quebecs-bill-21
fear not my friend this law will not last long. Religious people will always get what they want in the end

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