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Post by sportsczy on Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:09 pm

He was just as good as Kante in the WC on defense throughout the whole tournament.  But that's because France NT asks him to stay back and play the "Pirlo" role on the attack.  With Griezmann, Mbappe and Coman/Dembele/Lemar to go with Giroud... he's not needed in the final 1/3rd other than opportunistically.

The issue at Man U is that he has to create in the final 3rd (they have no other creators), score some (they have no striker you can count on for 20+ goals) AND defend.  It was too much.  Matic was awful so he couldn't cover him. Herrera was injured too often to really get into a groove. Then you had the wonderful fullback pairing of Valencia/Young. That team is just built like shit.

As long as he plays EITHER B2B or deeper CM, he can defend great.  If you ask him to become a CAM, then his defense suffers.

Even Vieira, who was an incredible defender, didn't attack anywhere near as much as Pogba was asked to.  They didn't need him to.  You had Henry, Pires, Ljundberg, etc on the attack.

That's why he wants to leave Man U.  He asked to do too much. At Madrid, you have Casemiro to cover behind him (like Kante does at France NT). He'll shine. Especially if Ferland Mendy is the fullback on the left and Hazard is in front of him. He doesn't need to try and overdo it.

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Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:56 pm

So you’re saying he replaces Kroos?

If so, that’s a hard sell.

It’s the other side (Modric, Valverde, Isco) that is spot that more desperately needs a replacement.
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Post by sportsczy on Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:03 pm

He plays on the right with France NT.  That's not the problem.  I just think he would fit FAR better with Hazard who likes to link up...  Kroos isn't a CM that can play linkup.  Issue with Hazard is that Kroos doesn't really support him on the attack.  It's left to Marcelo to support Hazard and I don't like the balance that creates with Kroos having to play defensive cover.

I'd move Kroos to the right.  He played there some with Bayern.

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Post by Cyborg on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:44 pm

So the reason for Hazard's poor performances so far is Kroos

Come on. That's not right.

I get the argument. But Kroos isn't the reason. Hazard needs to adapt faster.

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Post by halamadrid2 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:49 am

Tbh Hazard is the one who abandons his position and leaves our LB all on his own. Yes Kroos isn't your typical B2B but I've yet to see him anywhere but the left side of the field. If Hazard wasn't so unfit he'd probably adapt faster but the poor guy runs probably 5km a game

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:28 pm

a bit funny how Hazard talks about wanting to play for madrid all his life and then shows up overweight in training. then we hear about how it's ok, he does it all the time, and even his NT manager says he can still deliver while unfit, etc... well he hasnt and he needs to pick it up.

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Post by halamadrid2 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:04 pm

So Hakimi plays as a winger these days. Yh, he is deffo getting sold in the sunmer. Plays LB for Morocco and LW for Dortmund. We already have Mendy and Reguillon for the LB spot and we aren't in need of a LW these days especially not a a defender converted into a winger.

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Post by chad4401 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:53 pm

@sportsczy wrote:He plays on the right with France NT.  That's not the problem.  I just think he would fit FAR better with Hazard who likes to link up...  Kroos isn't a CM that can play linkup.  Issue with Hazard is that Kroos doesn't really support him on the attack.  It's left to Marcelo to support Hazard and I don't like the balance that creates with Kroos having to play defensive cover.

I'd move Kroos to the right.  He played there some with Bayern.


Typical excuse before these guys join the club, their better than everyone on the current team, when that not the case it's one of the scapegoat faults, hazard decision making is bad and slow, still looks out of shape that on him nothing to do with kroos, if hazard wants to do more combination play then stop running head down into the ground  not like he gonna cross it.

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:08 pm

I am recalling the seemly constant criticism leveled at Perez for his pursuit of youth talent.

It’s kind of ironic that the most expensive of these purchases, Vinicius, Rodrygo and Odegaard are now starting to look like the promises they appeared to be, yet the critics constantly put them off. In addition several of the other youth are also developing into solid pros. Whether or not they develop into Madrid players or not, they will easily recoup their investment values.

I find it real interesting to look back at the posts from these critics vs the actual results of Flo’s investments!
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:15 pm

Bill... do you really want me to do an accounting on this? Hint: You don't.

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:27 pm

No, go ahead and be sure to include your past posts.
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:52 pm

Ferland Mendy 53,0
Eder Militao 50,0
Rodrygo 45,0
Vinicius 45,0
Kovacic 38,0
Odriozola 30,0
Theo Hernandez 27,4
Dani Ceballos 18,8
Brahim Diaz 15,5
Odegaard 4,0

That;s 326,7 million euros.  The only guy that's a bonafide good La Liga player is Odegaard... and he was the cheapest.  All the other are nothing more than prospects or failures.  Other than Odegaard, Rodrygo is the only other one that has potential to be a regular at RM with Mendy.  Vini won't get there.  The Mendy risk, i understand because Marcelo is getting older and there are no WC Lbs that you can buy period. And he had already proven his quality at Lyon.

So let me ask you this, do you know what we could have bought for 275 mil euros?   Bonafide WC players.  No uncertainty.

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:34 pm

There is a lot missing in your "accounting".

Youth players purchased:
Odegaard 3M
Kovacic 38M
Vinicius 45M
Asensio 3M
Ceballos 16.5M
Vallejo 5M
Theo 24M
Rodrygo 45M
Lunin 17M
Kubo ZERO
Odriozola 30M
Brahim 17M
Mendy 53M
Militao 50M
Jovic 60M

Of these the club has only given up on Theo and Kovacic thus far. They sold them for 20M (a 4M loss) and 45M (a 7M gain), thus a 3M gain.  Of all the others, it is way too soon to say they won't be bonafide La liga players. But unlike you I appreciate what is showing thus far with Odegaard, Rodrygo, Vinicius, Mendy and Militao plus the home grown Valverde. All of them will either make it or they will be sold off with a net gain. Of the others the only ones who, at this point won't be sold (if it comes to that) with a net gain is Lunin and Odriozola. so if your accounting looked at it as Investments (in youth), you would realize it has been sound investments and the likelyhood, despite what you say, is some of these will MAKE it with club.

And your accounting is ignoring the in house development which has almost no acquisition costs.

Developed and sold (in past 3 years)
M. Llorente 30M
D Llorente 7M
De Tomas 21M
Mascarell 10M (1.5M net)
Torro 3.5M (1.75M net)
Burgui 3M

and that doesn't include players still out on loans, who all will fetch net gains if they are eventually sold, again if they don't make it with Club.

Achraf, Reguilion, Mayoral, Sanchez, Oscar.

You have been extremely critical of Flo's strategy, yet with your financial background, you shouldn't be able to  deny the soundness of this youth investment strategy. And one thing you constantly ignore is that with any sound investment strategy, you have to allow for time and patience. You can't deny that Flo will recoup all of his investments dollars and at end of day, it is a net gain. That is without the gain from marketing, team performance etc for the ones that do make it.

Your whole criticism is regarding Flo's hesitation of purchasing established pros. That to me is a separate discussion.  I would agree with you if his only acquisitions were youth promises. Granted there were 2 years were he definitely should have done more, but most that was based on his and Zidane's assumption that the current team, at that time was good enough!
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:53 pm

It's not about who we didn't "give up" on.  Unless you're talking about a Neymar or Messi level talent OR guys that have already proven it in top leagues (Militao, Mendy, Kova and Jovic)... It's insane to spend 15 million on nobodies.

Of all these guys, how many do you think are actually going to be regulars at Real Madrid?  Odegaard, who was cheap, is the only unproven kid who has a legit argument.  Rodrygo is getting a chance this year until we sign Mbappe... and then that's over.

The other guys who could?  Proven young players... not unproven kids.  Namely, Militao and Mendy.

That's it.  You spent 400-500 million on Mendy, Militao and Odegaard.  All you can hope with the rest is backup time or recoup your cost on resell.

And please don't include castilla players.  They're not part of the argument you're making. We're talking about kids in diapers that Flo bought from other clubs.

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Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:57 pm

And it's not sound investment strategy... how is it sound?  With such risk, you expect a 20% IRR minimum.  So if you're investing 500 million and you wait 5 years to either sell or play, you need to make 20% return annually that compounds... so 1,3 billion or thereabouts if you were to sell them all in 5 years.

It's a shit financial strategy.  Flo just wants to get a rep as a "football man".  It has nothing to do with investment strategy.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:12 pm

in a market where star players and some talents are costing upward of 100 millions euros, and that includes fraudulent wannabes like Coutinho and Dembele, it's always a very sound strategy to invest in young talent for a lot less money and to bet on their potential.

One obvious reason is probability: if you sign a lot of young high level talent, you will strike gold on a couple. you spread the money around as opposed to gambling on a single player when it comes to young players.

I always said it is a good strategy and i maintain that point of view, specially when we had a mature squad in many ways. You can't afford to sign players upwards of 100 millions who are gamble.

When we spend 200+ millions on Mbappe, there will be no fear because he is a sure thing. And at the same time, that youth investment will pay off in the way we are seeing other players like Odegaard, Achraf etc... grow and show a level they can have a career as 1st team players for us.

The others that we struck out on, high resale value still, and we will recoup 80-90% of what we spent on them if not more.


Last edited by Mr Nick09 on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:14 pm

You don’t see a possibility of a future team of

Vinicius (Asensio) Mbappe (Jovic) Rodrygo (Brahim)

Kroos  (De Beek)  Casemiro (Valverde) Odegaard (Isco)

Mendy (Reguilion) Militao Varane Carvajal (Achraf)?

All may not remain and I’m not saying Mbappe and De Beek would be the only new signings, but the rest are definite possibilities.

Look it’s a strategy and with any such strategy, you can’t expect all of them to work out. But you also need patience and time, something you obviously ignore.

As to the exclusion of Castilla, no way. It is a development part of club and plays a big part of staffing the big club as well as every once in a while generates  legit prospects, plus it actually makes money.

And lol on you for trying to put a ROI on just 2 outright sales out of 15 in past past three years. I’m equally sure that those that will eventually be sold will easily reach that 20% ROI you mentioned.

I actually feel, you should exclude Jovic, Mendy and Militao and Kovacic from this accounting as they were more or less established before they came here. And their price tags are higher primarily because of this new escalated market you keep talking about.

If you ignore these 4, the only price tags, you are objecting to are Vinicius, Rodrygo and Odriozola. Two of them are already valued at more than was paid for and definite possibilities of Making it. Odriozola is the only one who hasn’t proven his purchase price. Plus you have Odegaard (who you have continually put down) and Kubo as definitively possibilities who were purchased for virtually nothing.
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Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:16 pm

no Pogba no Party

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Post by Doc on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:24 pm

Signing for the future only works when the club actually has a structure that makes it possible for said signings to have a future with the club. The way we signed youngsters, it felt more like "whatever sticks on the wall" than something that was meant to be a long term vision.

What I am trying to say is Pogba can keep his lazy ass in Manchester and give me Ode or give me nothing.

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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:26 pm

The real reason for Sports’ objection is The non signing of Pogba!

The guy with the crap agent that demanded both an outrageous signing fee, salary plus a unacceptable image right percentage. he since went to Man U and has never lived up to the price tag. And yet some here still insist Flo should pay the demanded price based solely on his efforts in a one month duration with his NT.

By the way, apparently Flo has told Zidane, He won’t pay any more than 50M for him as he doesn’t believe he is worth price tag.
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Post by chad4401 on Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:52 pm

Don't see how 300 mil on couple players makes the team more or less competitive, end of the day flo know what he is doing and stopped being reactionary, unlike dude who saw the team get trashed by atleti in preseason, shit on the club now atleti is what 6th, they spent a lot of money on hyped players like Felix so what? Their still losing so again this theory is silly.

how much money barca spent? It still comes down to Messi or nothing, end of the day you guys cry for these big transfers cause you want the fee to force out players you don't like, I don't need casemiro or valverde or rodrygo, etc, to be hype jobs costing a 100 mil to appreciate them, which is something real Madrid fans struggle with, you guys care about bragging more than winning.

I doubt flo is gonna spend 200 mil on mbappe, he not trying to pay bs fees especially for a kid who rejected the club in the first place, everyday fans and zz sucking him off like he is some god, he better force his way out for a 150 mil or he gonna have to run down his contract, flo is actively trying to get the next big thing through scouting, it's obvious that why ungrateful fans would use players presentation cry for mbappe, cause he is the hottest name that it, winning with jovic instead of him, is the same thing for flo.

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Post by Thimmy on Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:04 pm

We acquired your eternal, unrequited crush, Benzema thanks to those expensive, «hyped up players», you retard. I hope Isco hits form soon, so I can witness your weekly outbursts again.

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Post by Doc on Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:28 am

Forgive him, he's not a Madrid fan so his knowledge is quite limited.

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Post by sportsczy on Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:26 am

No.  I was livid when our midfielders were OBVIOUSLY getting old, Marcelo was Marcelo AND we sold Ronaldo... and signed Courtois ONLY.  As if Ceballos, Llorente, Isco, Asensio, Reguillon and Odriozola were going to become a golden generation like Barca's.

To me, that was the definition of delusional, stupid or just plain ripping off the fans.

Buying a bunch of kids and throwing to the fire at Real Madrid of all places just stunk.

What stunk more is that we STUCK TO THE PLAN all of 2.5 months.  That was the time alloted to make that strategy work.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:51 am

Absolutely it was the right strategy to sign young players rather than established stars. We had starters coming off repeat CL winning seasons, living Titans in the history of Madrid, players who could simply not put in competition with other guys.

What they needed were clear back up, number 2s and young talented players with that understanding was perfect. Those young players you list all had potential to grow into starters for Madrid, the same way Valverde is starting for us today and playing well.

The plan is alive and well. Sign young players, continue to sign young players, loan some, play those you can keep around, and some gems will come through. Meanwhile, when you have the opportunity to sign sure fire stars, you do it.

It's a long term strategy that makes a lot of sense and has been implemented well looking at the Grand scheme of things.

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Post by futbol_bill on Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:10 pm

Forgive him, from his perspective, the youth strategy only works if you sign French youth!
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