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Post by Babun on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:46 am

English NT gave us a sample of at least 12-13 players from that league yesterday. This thread isn't about English NT though but about some myths about EPL.

Biggest myth: EPL is the toughest league with hard challenges and real men attitude.

Evidence from yesterday suggests the opposite. It was the only game in the WC where I saw lots of ZERO contact dives when not even challenged. They were all coming from the EPL players. Again, I am not singling out the English NT but EPL. Apparently, it is ok there to dive without any contact all the time when the referee cannot see properly. Of course, the behaviour is also prevalent in other leagues and by South Americans mostly but they milk real contact. Zero contact diving from different players all in the same game is proof of a diving culture in EPL.
I don't know how it is in other leagues but in Bundesliga their own fans would boo them like no tomorrow. Maybe, zero contact diving became prevalent because of those hard challenges and the will to survive but fact is they are part of the EPL now.
Second, tough men mentality. The EPL players from yesterday were so afraid after 1-1 that they couldn't pass the ball properly. Under no pressure with the pressing attacker far away they squandered passes out of play. What kind of tough mentality is it to be so afraid of the opponent to not be able to string 2- 3 passes together? One could say, it was a shock but it prevailed until the second half of the extra time.

So in conclusion:
Real men, hard challenges ? Bitch please :coffee:
Tough mentality under pressure? Bitch please :coffee:

That leaves us with direct play and high tempo game which was true. Lack of midfield play and too much of an emphasis on wing play is the English NT problem so I wouldn't generalize that one to the whole EPL.


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Post by futbol_bill on Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:52 am

But Babs, they have evolved from that hoof the ball first and foremost mentality!
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:10 am

Still don't get why people are singling us out for some of this stuff when Colombia were a lot worse than us in every dickhead category imaginable.
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Post by Jay29 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:29 am

You mean English players dive and playact with the best of them now? Colour me surprised.

Sorry for the sarcasm but this "myth" has been busted a long time ago by anyone who watches Premier League football on a regular basis. The idea that this is still a "hard man" league has long been de-constructed and the casual cheating that goes on during a game has been absorbed into our football culture.

Players who dive are no longer called divers by the media. Instead, we use the word "clever", suggesting the player has craftily circumvented the rules for the benefit of his team. I would rather we call it as it is but its indicative of how accepting we are of diving and simulation now - or maybe it's more like resignation that we just can't do much about it anymore.

I can understand why people would get on England's back about this now because they played the victim for so long and were in blissful ignorance about their own problems, but times have changed. These things don't agitate as much as they used to.

It's quite funny, though, that England not being a total embarrassment at a tournament is getting under people's skin. I wonder if people would be as annoyed had Colombia gone through instead, even though they shithoused more than we did.

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Post by Babun on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:38 am

Mole and the rest, again, the post is not directed at the English NT but they represent an optimal sample for EPL.

What Colombia did is called South American thugism when they are about to lose which isn't specific to a league or playstyle but to the south american heat headed culture.

I was talking about specific traits in a league. Imagine, in Bundesliga or Lige 1, a player would have been socially murdered or kicked left and right on the field if they divied with Zero contact inside the penalty box. Something like this:


About the so called jealousy because you are successful for once Very Happy
There is nothing, absolutly nothing to be jealous about the current English team. For all I care go and win the WC.
To an average English fan like Mole, congrats so far, I am very happy for you.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:55 am

You clearly are though, most here were absolutely desperate for us to lose against Colombia.

That was obvious before the game, during the game and after the game. Much more desperate than any of us were to actually win Laughing

You can say you don't all you want by your actions betray you I'm afraid.

The happiness on this forum when we go out will be be at it's highest point, that's very obvious. A lot of people here will be happier when we lose than when their own teams win.
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Post by Jay29 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Is it not a double standard to dismiss what Colombia did as just "South Amercian thugism" but pile on England for diving a bit? Surely both are bad and should be equally condemned.

Also, using the England team as representative of the Premier League as a whole is pointless because it's two very different cultures. An England player during an England game isn't going to get nearly as much negative press when the whole country wants to win. There's a limit to how much we attack our own players, even in our media. The Premier League is an entirely different story because it's more divisive. The media thrives on the debate that controversy brings and doesn't care about double standards and hypocrisy.

On top of that, there's a huge divide between media perception and fan perception. An English player diving likely gets a pass in the English press, but it won't from fans. Like, I'm supporting Dele Alli now because it's a World Cup, but the moment he goes back to Spurs he'll just be a diving POS to me.

So I'm not entirely sure what the issue here is. Everyone knows there's diving in the Premier League. Some acknowledge it, other choose to ignore it. Is it really so different to other leagues?

I think a bigger myth surrounding English football is the perception that we still lack self-awareness about these things.

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Post by Unique on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:03 pm

the more foreign players that came to the epl the worst the diving and play acting got and that my friends is a fact.

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Post by Babun on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:21 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:You clearly are though, most here were absolutely desperate for us to lose against Colombia.

That was obvious before the game, during the game and after the game. Much more desperate than any of us were to actually win Laughing

You can say you don't all you want by your actions betray you I'm afraid.

The happiness on this forum when we go out will be be at it's highest point, that's very obvious. A lot of people here will be happier when we lose than when their own teams win.

The correct term is called Schadenfreude. I don't know about the rest of GL but I don't feel anything towards English NT neither positive nor negative. If you were Italy or Holland that would be another story.
@Jay29 wrote:Is it not a double standard to dismiss what Colombia did as just "South Amercian thugism" but pile on England for diving a bit? Surely both are bad and should be equally condemned.

Also, using the England team as representative of the Premier League as a whole is pointless because it's two very different cultures. An England player during an England game isn't going to get nearly as much negative press when the whole country wants to win. There's a limit to how much we attack our own players, even in our media. The Premier League is an entirely different story because it's more divisive. The media thrives on the debate that controversy brings and doesn't care about double standards and hypocrisy.

On top of that, there's a huge divide between media perception and fan perception. An English player diving likely gets a pass in the English press, but it won't from fans. Like, I'm supporting Dele Alli now because it's a World Cup, but the moment he goes back to Spurs he'll just be a diving POS to me.

So I'm not entirely sure what the issue here is. Everyone knows there's diving in the Premier League. Some acknowledge it, other choose to ignore it. Is it really so different to other leagues?

I think a bigger myth surrounding English football is the perception that we still lack self-awareness about these things.

Finaly, a proper discussion. So the average English fan condems such actions in EPL but is more lenient when it comes to the English NT and we, outsiders, aren't informed of the awareness besides the English press. Hmm, I also visit United and Pool websites from time to time to check their reactions to certain events. I get the feeling, the actions are condemned only when the player is from the opposing team. As long as the player belongs to the fan's team itself they rarely have anything to complain.
@Unique wrote:the more foreign players that came to the epl the worst the diving and play acting got and that my friends is a fact.

The play acting antics and diving were first introduced by South American players in Seria A but they never evolved to perfect ZERO contact diving multiple time by different players in the same game. That's why I think there is a cultural aspect in EPL which is tolerant of such a behaviour.


Last edited by Babun on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Unique on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:27 pm

Who remembers the 1990 World Cup when klinsmann was flopping around like a fish against England getting a free kick that got Germany back into the game. Who remembers maradonna punching the ball in the net v England. What about Ronaldo getting Rooney sent off. We have had this shit for years and now we are sinking as low as the rest of the world people don’t like it.

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Post by Jay29 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Finaly, a proper discussion. So the average English fan condems such actions in EPL but is more lenient when it comes to the English NT and we, outsiders, aren't informed of the awareness besides the English press. Hmm, I also visit United and Pool websites from time to time to check their reactions to certain events. I get the feeling, the actions are condemned only when the player is from the opposing team. As long as the player belongs to the fan's team itself they rarely have anything to complain.

I think that's the same for all clubs, regardless of country. Part of being a supporter is standing up for your team's players, even when you know they've done wrong. It's borderline tribalism but nonetheless a feature of being a fan, nor is it something exclusive to England.

You see this an international level as well. If an England player does wrong, English people aren't going to complain too much so long as the team progresses. It's only when we go out that there's nationwide condemnation - like Rooney or Beckham getting red cards, for example.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:47 pm

This is the issue the average England fan is very different to the media lol.

Most of us are very negative, constantly criticise players for the stuff you mention and all in all nothing like how the media portrays the country.

I don't think we are angels but I don't understand this singling out in this thread tbh. Colombia were way worse at nearly everything imaginable.

They have mountain sized CBs rolling around because they can't stay with Sterling, players kicking at the penalty spot to try and put Kane off, players headbutting for no reason and all other means of utter shithousery.

I haven't been so happy to beat a team in years because of how they were behaving like utter *bleep*.

So I can't understand for the life of me why we are the ones being criticised.
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Post by Unique on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:53 pm

EPL Myths and banter Anglo10

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Post by Babun on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:17 pm

Spoiler:

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:This is the issue the average England fan is very different to the media lol.

Most of us are very negative, constantly criticise players for the stuff you mention and all in all nothing like how the media portrays the country.

I don't think we are angels but I don't understand this singling out in this thread tbh. Colombia were way worse at nearly everything imaginable.

They have mountain sized CBs rolling around because they can't stay with Sterling, players kicking at the penalty spot to try and put Kane off, players headbutting for no reason and all other means of utter shithousery.

I haven't been so happy to beat a team in years because of how they were behaving like utter *bleep*.

So I can't understand for the life of me why we are the ones being criticised.
You are still fixated on England NT too much. I am not talking about them at all. EPL is the best promoted league in the world. English NT gave us a perfect sample from EPL:
1. They grew up there and learnt how to play football.
2. They are currently plaing in EPL teams.

In contrast, Colombia is a South American team whose players are playing in clubs all around the world. Were they worse than England yesterday when it comes to sportmanship? Yes, they were for sure. Can I draw any conclusions from that Colombian team?  Certainly No.

To make my point even more clear, as a neutral, I am not going to watch Sweden vs England. I am sure the game is very thrilling for the Swedish and English fans and good luck with that but I am not interested in let's say their kind of footy. So stay on topic or GTFO :coffee:
@Unique wrote:EPL Myths and banter Anglo10

Laughing
@Jay29 wrote:
Finaly, a proper discussion. So the average English fan condems such actions in EPL but is more lenient when it comes to the English NT and we, outsiders, aren't informed of the awareness besides the English press. Hmm, I also visit United and Pool websites from time to time to check their reactions to certain events. I get the feeling, the actions are condemned only when the player is from the opposing team. As long as the player belongs to the fan's team itself they rarely have anything to complain.

I think that's the same for all clubs, regardless of country. Part of being a supporter is standing up for your team's players, even when you know they've done wrong. It's borderline tribalism but nonetheless a feature of being a fan, nor is it something exclusive to England.

You see this an international level as well. If an England player does wrong, English people aren't going to complain too much so long as the team progresses. It's only when we go out that there's nationwide condemnation - like Rooney or Beckham getting red cards, for example.

I get that part. So all in all, cultural differences are prevalent in the respective leagues. The sportmanship standard in BL and Lige 1 is very different to the rest and not vice versa. I have to live with that :coffee:

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:41 pm

Would be easier to stay on topic if the topic wasn't something which is ridiculously outdated that nobody actually believes anymore and hasn't done for over 5-6 years tbh hmm
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Post by futbol_bill on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:31 pm

I must say Mole that what you say as representative of most EPL fans is not what we see and certainly not what we see in English media (I for one never look at British media), but certainly we see it from other GL posters excluding yourself of course.

It’s actually quite amusing how defensive you and others have been recently, particularly with all the abuse thrown by way with the Spanish collapse.
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Post by Doc on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:32 pm

@Unique wrote:the more foreign players that came to the epl the worst the diving and play acting got and that my friends is a fact.

Those same good English lads are also diving so either you guys are easily influenced or maybe, just maybe, the English lads are very much part and parcel of the problem.

Anglophobia is hardly a thing and I really wonder where Mole gets this "most of the forum wanted Colombia to go through". From the polls (the only real data we have), it was at 13 votes to 11 to Colombia. Hardly the stuff of "most of the forum". Unless he thinks S and Breva talking down England's chances/talking up Colombia's constitutes as something.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:08 pm

@futbol_bill wrote:I must say Mole that what you say as representative of most EPL fans is not what we see and certainly not what we see in English media (I for one never look at British media), but certainly we see it from other GL posters excluding yourself of course.

It’s actually quite amusing how defensive you and others have been recently, particularly with all the abuse thrown by way with the Spanish collapse.


What abuse have we aimed your way BTW? We've criticised Spain because at least from my point of view I don't think they are good enough.

I don't know if you know this but I'm half Spanish, my dad is Spanish and my mum is English so I have no reason to think badly of Spain I was just calling it how I see it.

If I have said anything else you consider abuse then I do apologise

As for the media they always show the very exaggerated view of England tbh as I imagine most countries media does. The reality is most people I know are very negative with regards to the national team and think we are going fail all the time.

The footballs coming home stuff is usually our way of masking our own negativity for a laugh, very few people are serious with it.

For me this is two fold because as a Newcastle fan we are considered deluded because you'll see some people jokingly say "gonna win the league" when the reality is we think we are going down every year. Laughing

Honestly the media makes me cringe, especially ITV with the whole "England expects" *bleep* off do we, most people considered getting out of the group a success this time.
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Post by Unique on Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:23 pm

lets be honest here. anyone thats not super surprised england have made it this far has never seen england play. us england fans all agree that this is the worst england squad in living memory. but its still coming home. cheers

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Post by Babun on Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:57 am

I have to revise my opinion again. Apparently, Lige 1 is contaminated, too. The oh so future talent Mbappe was shot by a sniper rifle in the game vs. Uruguay. Neymar is playing in that league and is still diving with no contact at least once each game.
Bundesliga is last refuge for fair play I guess :coffee:

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Post by sportsczy on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:02 pm

You know what the solutions is? Don't incentivize diving. If you get kicked and play through it, you don't get the foul called almost every time... but if you fall, the ref has to call it. As a result, players are almost obligated to embellish fouls to get the call.

Refereeing and rule implementation changes are the only solution imo.

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Post by Babun on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:11 pm

@sportsczy wrote:You know what the solutions is?  Don't incentivize diving.  If you get kicked and play through it, you don't get the foul called almost every time...  but if you fall, the ref has to call it.  As a result, players are almost obligated to embellish fouls to get the call.

Refereeing and rule implementation changes are the only solution imo.

The only way to reduce the problem would be punishment  like game suspensions in case of non contact diving even after the game if proof by video is apparent.

The cleanest Top Player this WC has been Eden Hazard. He rarely dives and delievers, too.


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Post by S on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:12 pm

@Doc wrote:
@Unique wrote:the more foreign players that came to the epl the worst the diving and play acting got and that my friends is a fact.

Those same good English lads are also diving so either you guys are easily influenced or maybe, just maybe, the English lads are very much part and parcel of the problem.

Anglophobia is hardly a thing and I really wonder where Mole gets this "most of the forum wanted Colombia to go through". From the polls (the only real data we have), it was at 13 votes to 11 to Colombia. Hardly the stuff of "most of the forum". Unless he thinks S and Breva talking down England's chances/talking up Colombia's constitutes as something.


@S wrote: It's a 50-50 tie atleast to me. England have the edge if James misses out.

Get out with the nonsense
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:14 pm

You were still hyping their win over Poland as the greatest thing since Smalling benching Bailly though hmm
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Post by S on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:18 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:You were still hyping their win over Poland as the greatest thing since Smalling benching Bailly though hmm


I wasn't talking down England though hmm

Incidentally they won that with James on the pitch and my point at the time was to imply how important he is to them when in that very same conversation you were downplaying his importance  

Still maintain Colombia are a good team and were a bit unlucky in this world cup. And I dint expect them to play 3 DM's against you and go with a defensive approach. Guess I was wrong there.
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