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Post by adun101 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:57 pm

@Kaladin wrote:Do you think Manolas will be offloaded this summer?


Yes. To Juve

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Post by McLewis on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:27 am

@Kaladin wrote:Do you think Manolas will be offloaded this summer?


He's the most likely other than Under. I think that largely will depend on who our permanent DS ends up being. Ricky Massara would probably not sell him and neither would Sabatini (if rumors of his return are to be believed) considering it was he who brought Manolas to us.

Without CL though, it doesn't look good for us.
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Post by rincon on Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:58 pm

@McLewis wrote:So SPAL have done the double over us this season.

Not something I thought I'd be writing at the beginning of the season, but here we are.

With EDF gone and Ranieri with virtually no time with this squad, I expect the blame for this will fall on Monchi yet it needs to be on the players. I'll never understand why they continue to be let off the hook when it's they who are failing.

The players haven't been off the hook. The whole argument against Monchi is that he brought the wrong players, meaning that the players aren't good enough. The players get the bulk of the blame, Juan Jesus is the embodiment of criticism.

The backline vs SPAL contained 1 good-enough player and that's Fazio. Olsen, Karsdorp, Jesus, Marcano? come on. At least 2 of these players need to get out of Roma ASAP and the other 2 need to be back ups, even Fazio, while ok, should be for rotation.

NZonzi is so limited and gets criticized plenty by the media. Similarly, Dzeko's season is a hot topic as no one predicted such a sharp decline.

The only one that escapes criticism in this defeat is Rainieri. A problematic squad so depleted by injuries away to a team in a survival fight.

The call ups read
Olsen
Karsdorp
Marcano
Jesus
Kluivert
Santon
Fuzato
Coric
Mirante
Riccardi
Celar
Cargnelutti

These are all too young or not good enough to be significant players for Roma.

Among the "worthy" ones in the team you still had a bunch of should-be-rotational players in their current state like:
Schick
Dzeko
NZonzi
Cristante
Fazio
Perotti

The team falls apart when De Rossi is out and Pellegrini is not in top form. IMO there a few players to build a good spine, there are just too many players to trim or bench.

X
X - Fazio - Manolas - Kolarov
X - X
Zaniolo - Pellegrini - El Shaarawy
X

De Rossi is too old to be relied on to be fit, Dzeko is on decline, Schick isn't ready, NZonzi and Cristante can be useful but neither has definitively seized a spot.
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Post by McLewis on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:08 pm

I don't disagree with any of that and while I liked Monchi's approach to signing players, the results left a lot to be desired of course.

However, when it comes down to who should shoulder the most the blame - EDF, Monchi, or the players - The coach and the sporting director are always the easiest targets when things don't go well. In our case, they were too easy as targets. The players must shoulder more responsibility. They are the only ones who can get us out of this mess.
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Post by Arquitecto on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:26 am

Completely disagree that Dzeko's in decline as decline is an incremental drop in a CF's greatest strengths as compared to what he is facing, general frustration and of course being used in the isolated #9 role that he was to which take away from him being the superbly complete CF he is as his game changes say when Schick performs the things he simply is not comfortable performing.

Cristante is a bundle of talent but always turns into a deer-in-headlights when the pressure mounts in certain moments given his general meek personality.

Marcano should be given a chance given his performance are improving.

Fazio is finished despite his decent service for Roma whilst Karsdorp and Kluivert will turn out to be very useful if developed properly let alone kept.

Juan Jesus is by far the worst signing and never has had a half-decent performance in the Giallorossi shirt and single-handedly cost them the CL tie this year vs Porto.


McLewis's point above is obvious. Too much blame was on EDF who was sacked harshly and Monchi whilst the players who've been unable to lead themselves, compete with themselves have gotten off too easy.


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Post by rincon on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:58 am

Where have the players gotten off easy? they get booed in the stadium, they get criticized in the media, they get slammed by the fans. This pressure is part of what contributes to their shakiness.

Florenzi of all people gets whistled. Kolarov gets threats for responding to the Ultras when they were behaving like cavemen slamming the players after a match. NZonzi gets booed when coming off the field.

Monchi, EDF and the players have all gone down with the club. EDF was mostly in an unfortunate situation that wasn't his fault, he is the most innocent party, but he still had to be sacked to try to salvage the season. It's pointless to look at who's fault it is when in such a difficult situation, Roma had to look forward and he wasn't going to be the man to reign in the team. He tried many times through the season and it didn't stick, the locker room needs something else.
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Post by McLewis on Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:21 pm

So I feel like I should expand my initial response to you, Rincon.

When I say the players are being let off too easily, I didn't mean solely from the fans. We're harder on them than the coach most of the time. However, I 100% did not agree with Florenzi or Kolarov getting targeted as one runs his ass into the ground for this team every game and the other has been easily our best LB (outside of Riise) since probably Candela. They don't deserve the abuse they're getting.

However, the players have been still been well protected from criticism to the point where they know they can go out there and half-ass it and still get paid because of that contract. That's what I mean by them getting let off the hook too easily. This is where I blame not particularly EDF, but Monchi, Baldissoni, and the rest of the executive management right on up to Uncle Jimmy himself. There was no executive pressure on these players to increase their performance or get out during contract negotiations. Were their stats even discussed? Did the club even try to look objectively at the contributions each player made at the time of a renewal or when signing from another club? It's almost as if they (more accurately their agents) knew they had our management by the balls. They knew if they were forced out, we'd be worse for it. This type of anemic management is criminal and set EDF up for eventual failure from the off.

I don't care who we get as DS or coach this summer, but they must be more demanding and more selective of the talent we bring in. These players need to know that when they come here, they must perform or kick rocks. Too many of them are stealing a living right now.
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Post by rincon on Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 pm

Yes I agree with that.
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Post by McLewis on Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:45 pm

So we're 3 months out from that inevitable firesale/rebuild of this squad. I'm taking stock:

Goalkeepers:

Daniel Fuzato: Keep
Antonio Mirante: Sell
Robin Olsen: Keep

Fuzato is young and I'd like to see what he's made of playing first-team football. Mirante just isn't the backup that we need so he should be moved on. Olsen actually is the backup we need so he should be kept, but not as a starter.

Defenders

Rick Karsdorp: Keep
Kostas Manolas: Keep
Ale Florenzi: Keep
Federico Fazio: Sell
Ivan Marcano: Sell
Juan Jesus: Sell
Aleksandar Kolarov: Keep
Davide Santon: Keep

We need to completely rebuild the CB position around Manolas, who must be kept at all costs. Kola is a leader in this squad and while he is clearly declining, can still contribute. Luca Pellegrini should be ready to take the LB role next season with Kola on the bench. Unless we find a better player with the same versatility, Santon has shown his worth. Karsdorp is a toss up, but I like what I've seen from him and with the right coach, his defending can improve. Florenzi must be kept and not as a defender.

Midfielders

Daniele De Rossi: Keep
Lorenzo Pellegrini: Keep
Bryan Cristante: Keep
Nicolo Zaniolo: Keep
Steven Nzonzi: Sell
Ante Coric: Keep
Javier Pastore: Sell

Pastore and Nzonzi were both expensive gambles that did not work out so they gotta go. Coric hasn't played anywhere near enough to gauge his worth so I think he deserves another shot. Cristante is on the bubble largely as he just hasn't replicated the form that interested us. Still, it's his first season, he's young and I think he'll do better ultimately. The rest are no-brainers.

Forwards

Edin Dzeko: Sell
Stephan El Shaarawy: Keep
Cengiz Under: Keep
Justin Kluivert: Keep
Diego Perotti: Sell
Patrik Schick: Keep

Dzeko is probably the one that we'll ultimately sell as his value is high and he's not getting any younger. Along with him, Perotti could go as well though I personally like him a lot and wouldn't mind seeing him stay. Everyone else is still young enough to turn it around under the right coach. This goes doubly for Schick, who has shown good signs under Ranieri that he didn't show under EDF.


-----------------------------

Now the above is definitely pie-in-the-sky stuff as we're not keeping that many players, especially with no CL. Zaniolo is as good as gone, as is Manolas, Kluivert or Under, and maybe even Pellegrini if the price and destination are right. A man can hope though.
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Post by McLewis on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:14 am

So I feel vindicated after that undressing from Napoli. We've lost to a bottom-dweller and the 2nd place team in the league....all without EDF. He was never the problem.

Many will point the finger at Monchi and I suppose that's fair, but we never should've let EDF go. It's not Ranieri's fault. These players just aren't responding to anyone. They've checked out for the rest of the season. The only who is still coming to play is Zaniolo.
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Post by Arquitecto on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:45 am

I have lost a bulk of interest in Roma temporarily when Ranieri came in and the results themselves despite his short stay and of course being in a close to impossible situation with the current mental state of this squad, have shown. He is not relevant to be discussed here.

What is relevant is that the sacking of Di Francesco was highly unjustified and impulsive after a loss to a highly underrated Porto in what was a very close tie and rather unlucky (not a word I use often but there it is true).

Monchi does indeed deserve more stick for not replacing the players who departed with players who have been quite simply put, below-par, only deserving credit for the notable young talents recruited this season.

Just a quintessential injustice and I cannot imagine the drag to the end of the season for Roma fans it will be and wondering how their future will lay until they build that stadium to launch them from a marketable club to a club that is taken seriously worldwide.

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Post by McLewis on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:50 am

To be perfectly honest, I've checked out pretty much. Despite Milan and Inter continuing to do favors for us, we're not going to take advantage of them so there's no real point in staying invested in the team this season. I'll watch the matches, I'll tweet about them, but I'm not going to be excited for a win or angry at a loss. This season, to me at least, is already over.
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Post by adun101 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:53 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
What is relevant is that the sacking of Di Francesco was highly unjustified and impulsive after a loss to a highly underrated Porto in what was a very close tie and rather unlucky (not a word I use often but there it is true).


He also got blasted by Liverpool last year, lost to SPAL at home, allowed a 9 man Cagliari to equalize in the final minute, finished 3-3 versus Atalanta after being up 3-0, got blasted by Fiorentina 7-1 and lost the derby 3-0. He can't coach a defense and the players lost all faith in him, so his sacking was completely justifiable. It was supposed to shake up the mental state of the team, but the players are so far out of it that it didn't happen.
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Post by McLewis on Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:47 pm

Spalletti is considered one our best coaches post-Capello and his team had similar results to EDF's as well during his 1st tenure. Garcia had us top of the table for almost half the season and suffered catastrophic defeats to Bayern and Barca as well several losses and draws to lesser opponents. Same for Enrique, Ranieri's first stint, Zeman and everyone else that's taken charge over the last 15 years.

EDF is no worse than any of them. He is, in fact, better than most of them in my book.
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Post by adun101 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:27 pm

I don't see any great names. Maybe Enrique, but not when he was at Roma, he was a disaster. Eventually, they were all shown the door.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:00 pm

@adun101 wrote:
He also got blasted by Liverpool last year,

For all of Liverpool's blasting away, Roma were blatantly robbed and would rightfully have progressed to the CL final with proper refereeing.

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Post by iftikhar on Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:23 am

Roma is in risk of getting sucked into midtable quagmire. I seriously doubt if Roma management is willing to invest in squad building that will ensure CL spots/revenue. Without the CL revenue (and its residual revenues), I wonder what sort of project is feasible.
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Post by rincon on Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:51 am

Last 2 seasons the Roma spent some 250m on transfers. Significantly more than in the past, investment from the management isnt the issue. Problem is that Monchi spent it on scrubs and dismantled the squad. Without CL money it can get uglier.
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Post by McLewis on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:08 pm

Big, big win today. Those points were sorely needed. Gives us a real fighting chance at 4th now.

I know a Lazio win benefits us, but I wouldn't be mad at all if Milan won. Would rather lose out on Europe to them tbh.

Quick takes - Zaniolo is not a winger, losing DDR is a huge blow, Manolas maybe a doubt for the next game too based on how he was holding his hammy, Great to see Dzeko break his duck, SES's ultra non-chalant assist was absolutely filthy, Mirante had himself a game and Marcano has quite a good cross on him.
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Post by Arquitecto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:28 pm

El Shaarawy is one of the most misused players in the last decade in Serie A and even in his best campaign in Milan it was no surprise his best attributes came out when he was allowed space in the centre to display more of his creativity as the inside forward role left him mostly to cut in to exploit the nature of that said role but seeing over the years it was more so from his desire to be where he is comfortable and that is more centrally, that flick to him came organically as a result of his underused creativity and was just brilliant.

Easily Roma's player of the season in attack.

Happy to see Dzeko get on the sheet as he is not finished from anywhere but could do with a little less of the sulking he has done this season and just get on with it.


Marcano excels especially with fazing out aerial threats and I will maintain he should be the prime partner for Manolas as despite Porto's solid season they have missed him overwhelmingly in defence for a reason.

Mirante reliable as always even if he is typically unspectacular.

I cannot stress how much it pisses me off to see Zaniolo being used as a winger. For all Ranieri has proven he is not a dinosaur that moves stinks of that that and will hamper Zaniolo's development if he is continued to be used there.

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Post by Robespierre on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:29 pm

Roma are going in Champions League, sign my words

Their calendar is easy on paper

Inter
Cagliari (H)
Genoa
Juve (H, already Scudetto winners )
Sassuolo
Parma (H)

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Post by Arquitecto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:36 pm

I sincerely hope so.

Far more exciting than having Atalanta (who will FAIL early [only ones with provinciale awareness will know why]) and even worse, Lazio under the severely pragmatic Inzaghi who just stink of underperforming in any situation above mid-table.

Reminds me of when the typically emotional and dramatic Guidolin released his emotion in getting 4th spot by his cringeworthy dance in the celebrations only to be knocked out in the entrance rounds by a failed paneka by Maicosuel.

Not a single coach with a more tragic story consistently than Francesco Guidolin Laughing

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:45 pm

Still can't believe what a terrible and stupid decision it was from Swansea to fire him

Now they're Championship lower midtable lmao

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Post by Arquitecto on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:47 pm

From a tactical point-of-view and team-building along with using and bringing out the talents in youngsters he is top-notch.

Where he fails and why is because he has got to be the single most emotional, melodramatic and melancholy tactician in top flight football and quite the spectacle on the sidelines.

Swansea indeed wrongfully let him go given how constricted it was and he is not the short-term tinkerman type at all.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:10 pm

He was doing a great job by any meaningful metric Laughing

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Post by iftikhar on Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:10 am

@Robespierre wrote:Roma are going in Champions League, sign my words

Their calendar is easy on paper

Inter
Cagliari (H)
Genoa
Juve (H, already Scudetto winners )
Sassuolo
Parma (H)
It's not the schedule but the mental strength (or the lack of that) which matters. Majority of Roma players stopped turning-up after the 25th round which caused some pretty scandalous results.
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