An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud

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An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud Empty An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud

Post by Babun on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:26 pm



Santos say they were paid only €17.1m, the Catalans claim they spent €57m on the Brazilian. And nobody wants to explain where the rest ended up...


It has been described as the least transparent transfer in the history of football. Neymar's sensational move from Santos to Barcelona remains, some seven months later, about as clear as mud.

How much did he cost? Who got what? Where did the money go? Were there additional payments? The official figure released by Barcelona is €57 million, yet Santos say they only received €17.1m, third-party owners are annoyed by feeling short-changed and then there's an unusual first-option payment for three of the Brazilian side's youngsters, plus a couple of friendly fixtures between the two teams thrown in for good measure.

Deals involving South American sides and third-party ownership are always complicated. Nothing new there; even going back to the days of Diego Maradona, such deals took time, intense negotiations and plenty of patience as the money is dished out to all of the parties involved.

The real cost of this transfer, including the three Santos starlets who will probably never end up at the Catalan club (Victor Andrade, Gabriel Barbosa and Giva), plus the two friendly fixtures, means the total transfer fee alone for the Neymar deal could stand at around €69.5m, not €57m.
Meanwhile, supermarket chain DIS - who paid €2.8m for 40 per cent of Neymar's rights some years ago - want to know what they are owed. According to Santos, the fee was €17.1m (meaning DIS take €6.84m), but Barca's claim that the deal cost €57m means the supermarket chain would be entitled to €22.8m and even €27.8m if the three young players and two friendlies are included (which, of course, they weren't - not officially anyway).

A source close to the deal in Brazil claims Santos and Barca agreed an unusual structure for the cash to be paid. "Santos believe they are owed money by DIS (something DIS are thought to dispute) and the relationship is anything but good. They decided, along with Barcelona, for the money to be paid in different concepts and therefore reduced the amount owed to DIS."

That explains how Santos may have recouped extra funds from the deal, but still leaves the question of the remaining €40m. DIS received none of that, either, with just a quarter of it accounted for by Barca. The club revealed paying an initial €10m payment to Neymar's father in 2012 to ensure the player would ultimately choose the Catalans and not rivals Real Madrid. That figure appeared in Barca's accounts for last year and was confirmed by vice-president Josep Maria Bartomeu on the day of Neymar's unveiling at Camp Nou back in June. "Negotiations with Santos began back in 2011," he said. "And that's why there is, in last year's budget, a payment of €10m, as a contingency fund."

Santos claim Neymar's father did not take that €10m, yet the club cannot explain where the money did go.

But what about the other €30m? That money was never seen by Santos, nor DIS. "We saw on the television that Barca said the deal was €57m but here [in Brazil], Santos speak of €17m. We feel cheated," said DIS CEO Roberto Moreno in a radio interview in the summer.

DIS is also unhappy about the €10m down-payment made by the Catalan club. "Barca admitted making a previous payment of €10m when Neymar was at Santos," Moreno added. "And that, in Fifa regulations, is seen as a serious infringement when a player is under contract with another club."

The other key claim is that Neymar's father - and his company N&N - may have pocketed the entire €40m. "We paid €17.5m (sic) to Santos and €40m to an association who owned the rights to Neymar," Barca president Sandro Rosell said last week, but the Catalans' chief refused to elaborate on those figures.

Rosell has been reported by Barca socio Jordi Cases for "inappropriate use" of club funds. Cases, who had hoped to go ahead with a censure motion against Rosell but was forced to scrap that plan due to the difficulty of finding sufficient support from fellow socios, says he and others have a right to know how that money was spent. "I would say that in no circumstances should such an important payment as €40m be concealed. As a socio and co-owner of our beloved club, I should have the right to know under which concept those €40m were paid out."
Cases, like many others, also believes the €40m may have been paid to Neymar and his father in the form of a signing-on fee or as wages not included in the official figures. And if that were the case, Barcelona could be liable to pay tax on those funds, propelling the total cost of the transfer fee to in excess of €100m. "If that €40m was a hidden salary for the player, those monies should have been declared to Hacienda [the Spanish tax office]," he said. "And that would have taken the cost of the signing to over €100m."

Including Neymar's (official) wages over five years, plus the fee, the total outlay stands at €124m by Barcelona as it is. Seven months after the deal was closed, however, it remains unclear just where a lot of that money ended up - and whether the Catalan club should in fact have paid more for their brilliant Brazilian in the form of taxes. Just like the forward bamboozles defenders in La Liga, the riddle of his transfer is proving similarly enigmatic.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2013/12/18/4475022/commission-impossible-neymar-his-father-and-barcelonas
An investigation started:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/barcelonas-signing-of-neymar-being-investigated-by-court/article16027649/
European commission started their investigation as well but for other reasons:
http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2013/12/16/primera/1387211926_565261.html

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Post by futbol on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:55 pm

Typical case of sign-on bonus for the player as happens with every player who is on the last year of his contract. Laughing

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Post by Art Morte on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:05 pm

And then we read about the Spanish economy being fkd up Cool
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Post by Adit on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:22 pm

Now Messi controlling Barca finance as well ? rofl


#taxfrodo

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Post by Babun on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:43 pm

@futbol wrote:Typical case of sign-on bonus for the player as happens with every player who is on the last year of his contract. Laughing
Is it income or not? If yeah, tax has to be paid for the income. If it's not then what is it? Bonus or not, income has to be taxed.

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Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:51 pm

The issue here is that Rosell has to tell the socios... Barca is a public entity. If you don't represent an amount, it's fraud. That's the core of the issue here... there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

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An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud Empty Re: An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud

Post by futbol on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:52 pm

And where do you see that taxes aren't being paid? I'm sure the 500 lawyers of FC Barcelona can see this too if Babun from GL can. The most obvious workaround is that Neymar is on 7 + 8 (* 5 year contract = € 40M) = € 15M wages which are being taxed. Only reason they don't reveal this is because it makes him the highest paid player in the Barca squad. Laughing

@sportsczy wrote:there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

No, there isn't.

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An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud Empty Re: An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud

Post by Babun on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:59 pm

@futbol wrote:And where do you see that taxes aren't being paid? I'm sure the 500 lawyers of FC Barcelona can see this too if Babun from GL can. The most obvious workaround is that Neymar is on 7 + 8 (* 5 year contract = € 40M) = € 15M wages which are being taxed. Only reason they don't reveal this is because it makes him the highest paid player in the Barca squad. Laughing

@sportsczy wrote:there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

No, there isn't.
proof?

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Post by futbol on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:03 pm

Logic.

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Post by Babun on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:29 pm

@futbol wrote:Logic.
My logic says that Barcelona offcials wouldn't wait for an investigation to reveal the details of the deal unless there is something amiss.
I'll tell you something about accounting. There're always inappropriate use of funds which are never revealed. If there's an investigation, the police would gain full access to all of the accounting data. Trust me, none of the Barcelona officials would want that. If your theory is true they'd be coming out with the real details of the deal already. As it is right now, an investigation started. So far, there's no official statement by Barcelona officials...


Last edited by Babun on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by rwo power on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:36 pm

Well, obviously Barca and some other clubs face an investigation about their finances anyway:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/18/barcelona-real-madrid-ec-investigation-public-funding

I guess the people looking into it will go over the books with some magnifying glasses in any case and dig out what is hidden.

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Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:37 pm

A judge wouldn't take on a judicial investigation if he didn't have probable cause... probable cause means there's something worth spending resources on.

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An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud Empty Re: An obvious case of corruption and tax fraud

Post by futbol on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:35 pm

Barcelona stated long ago that they have no problems revealing the details if the other party involved agrees to lift the confidential clause. It's an open secret it went into Nerman's pockets. They just don't want to reveal it to the public.

FC Barcelona will pay a total of 57 million euros for the Brazilian star, which will be distributed among three companies (DISC, TEISA, N&N) and Santos FC, Neymar’s old Club. The companies have asked FC Barcelona to keep the percentages of the transfer sum allocated to each entity confidential.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/bartomeu-neymar-cost-57-million-euros

FC Barcelona representatives committing such obvious tax fraud with such huge sums involved (€ 40M!) in one of the most famous transfers of all time is unlikely. Rosell isn't THAT stupid.

The confusion here is that Santos received € 17M but DISC heard about the published number of € 57M so obviously they are trying to act stupid and pretend like they deserve 40 % share from € 57M and not from € 17M (at least try, something might come out of it), although it's clear the € 40M will not count as transfer fee but as sign-on bonus, paid in installments to the player's own foundation (N&N), aka bonus wages. What Santos negotiated with those other companies is none of Barca's concern. Proud

Rosell: “Nosotros pagamos 17.5 millones al Santos y el resto (40) van a la sociedad que tiene los derechos de negociación de Neymar.”

It can't get clearer than that. "We paid € 17.5 million to Santos [who have to share that amount with DISC and TEISA] and the rest to a company associated with Nerman [N&N]."

There is absolutely no question where those € 40M "disappeared". Some anti Rosell socio now takes the club to court because he thinks Rosell himself pocketed the money. :facepalm: Nothing will come out of this.

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Post by LeBéninois on Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:09 am

So Neymar got 40Millions out of the deal ? He better give us a good 10 years of high level  ...

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Post by Lex on Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:58 am

third-party owners are annoyed by feeling short-changed and then there's an unusual first-option payment for three of the Brazilian side's youngsters, plus a couple of friendly fixtures between the two teams thrown in for good measure
wtf is this :facepalm: Why can't a transfer just be simple and easy.

3rd party owners, first dibs on youth :facepalm: Do Barca players get to cut in line at the catering facilities at Santos too?

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Post by farfan on Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:21 pm

why would nerman take more money than the club and third party owners ? did he own a % of his rights?
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Post by futbol on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:34 pm

@farfan wrote:why would nerman take more money  than the club and third party owners ?  did he own a % of his rights?

Yes, N&N (Nerman and Nerman Laughing).

Rosell: “The National Court has asked us for information about the transfer of Neymar. We are delighted to be able to provide them with all the documents they need.”

Rosell: “As for the information coming from the European Commission, I have to say that Barça complies with Spanish law, which states that a club does not have to become a public limited sports company if it is solvent. FC Barcelona has not received funds of any type from any official bodies.”

Rosell: “Those are the facts. All of this has happened after FC Barcelona have led the way for the last few years. Such caustics clearly make people think and I like to believe that the sum of these events is coincidental and that there is no organised persecution of any kind.”

Rosell: “Our aims are to continue being as transparent as ever, to keep growing and stay top.”

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Post by zizzle on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:41 pm

@Lex wrote:
third-party owners are annoyed by feeling short-changed and then there's an unusual first-option payment for three of the Brazilian side's youngsters, plus a couple of friendly fixtures between the two teams thrown in for good measure
wtf is this :facepalm: Why can't a transfer just be simple and easy.

3rd party owners, first dibs on youth :facepalm: Do Barca players get to cut in line at the catering facilities at Santos too?


That is Santon's way of reducing the transfer fee and screw the third parties. I'm not sure how much Barca paid for the first options but the friendly games are worth a few millions at least.

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Post by harhar11 on Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:23 pm

@sportsczy wrote:The issue here is that Rosell has to tell the socios... Barca is a public entity.  If you don't represent an amount, it's fraud.  That's the core of the issue here...  there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

Out of topic, but then shouldn't Real Madrid do the same with Bale? I mean, IIRC, to this day Real Madrid have not revealed what they payes for Bale and they are also a public entity.

Needless to say, I dont understand why Barca and Real Madrid have to hide what they really payed for Neymar and Bale if they have not done anything illegal.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:14 am

It's pretty ridiculous Rosell is not allowed to tell us where he spent 40m. I hope this investigation sheds some light into it because it really is a disgrace.

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Post by Adit on Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:20 am

@zizzle wrote:
@Lex wrote:
third-party owners are annoyed by feeling short-changed and then there's an unusual first-option payment for three of the Brazilian side's youngsters, plus a couple of friendly fixtures between the two teams thrown in for good measure
wtf is this :facepalm: Why can't a transfer just be simple and easy.

3rd party owners, first dibs on youth :facepalm: Do Barca players get to cut in line at the catering facilities at Santos too?


That is Santon's way of reducing the transfer fee and screw the third parties. I'm not sure how much Barca paid for the first options but the friendly games are worth a few millions at least.
6 mill for some first refusal on players and a friendly. Total Neymar transfer fee is expected around 70 mill euros.

..................................

The problem here is that Barca cant give 40 mill to neymar as transfer fee..transfer fee have no tax..while the salary has. So this is seen as a method to stop paying income tax...what if every club start doing the same? put cristiano in 5 mill a year deal and pay some 50 mill as transfer fee to Ronaldo at the time of signing

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Post by sportsczy on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:07 pm

@harhar11 wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:The issue here is that Rosell has to tell the socios... Barca is a public entity.  If you don't represent an amount, it's fraud.  That's the core of the issue here...  there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

Out of topic, but then shouldn't Real Madrid do the same with Bale? I mean, IIRC, to this day Real Madrid have not revealed what they payes for Bale and they are also a public entity.

Needless to say, I dont understand why Barca and Real Madrid have to hide what they really payed for Neymar and Bale if they have not done anything illegal.
 A Barca socio brought the case to justice regarding Neymar... there is no socio complaint regarding the Bale deal.  Also, the Bale deal is reported at 90+ mil per Madrid and UK media are saying 100.  At most, you're looking at maybe a 10 mil discrepancy.  In Barca's case, the discrepancy is 40 mil..

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:16 pm

@harhar11 wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:The issue here is that Rosell has to tell the socios... Barca is a public entity.  If you don't represent an amount, it's fraud.  That's the core of the issue here...  there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

Out of topic, but then shouldn't Real Madrid do the same with Bale? I mean, IIRC, to this day Real Madrid have not revealed what they payes for Bale and they are also a public entity.

Needless to say, I dont understand why Barca and Real Madrid have to hide what they really payed for Neymar and Bale if they have not done anything illegal.
Well that's because the money is always reported to have been sent to Tottenham not 20m here, 20m there, 30 to his family and 30 to his agent. If that were the case the money to the relatives could be considered as wages

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Post by harhar11 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:25 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@harhar11 wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:The issue here is that Rosell has to tell the socios... Barca is a public entity.  If you don't represent an amount, it's fraud.  That's the core of the issue here...  there's 40 mil "missing" from the books of Barca.

Out of topic, but then shouldn't Real Madrid do the same with Bale? I mean, IIRC, to this day Real Madrid have not revealed what they payes for Bale and they are also a public entity.

Needless to say, I dont understand why Barca and Real Madrid have to hide what they really payed for Neymar and Bale if they have not done anything illegal.
 A Barca socio brought the case to justice regarding Neymar... there is no socio complaint regarding the Bale deal.  Also, the Bale deal is reported at 90+ mil per Madrid and UK media are saying 100.  At most, you're looking at maybe a 10 mil discrepancy.  In Barca's case, the discrepancy is 40 mil..

There is no discrepancy in the Neymar deal. We know that Barca payed a total of 57m, and from that amount only 17m went to santos + the company that own a % of his image. What we do not know is where the rest 40m went and thats why the member is suing the directors.

Anyway, my point was that what you just said regarding barca being a public entity and having to reveal the price of every player they sign, it can be said about Real Madrid aswell, but they themselves have not revealed what they paid for Bale.

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Post by Adit on Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:51 pm

@harhar11 wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:
@harhar11 wrote:

Out of topic, but then shouldn't Real Madrid do the same with Bale? I mean, IIRC, to this day Real Madrid have not revealed what they payes for Bale and they are also a public entity.

Needless to say, I dont understand why Barca and Real Madrid have to hide what they really payed for Neymar and Bale if they have not done anything illegal.
 A Barca socio brought the case to justice regarding Neymar... there is no socio complaint regarding the Bale deal.  Also, the Bale deal is reported at 90+ mil per Madrid and UK media are saying 100.  At most, you're looking at maybe a 10 mil discrepancy.  In Barca's case, the discrepancy is 40 mil..

There is no discrepancy in the Neymar deal. We know that Barca payed a total of 57m, and from that amount only 17m went to santos + the company that own a % of his image. What we do not know is where the rest 40m went and thats why the member is suing the directors.

Anyway, my point was that what you just said regarding barca being a public entity and having to reveal the price of every player they sign, it can be said about Real Madrid aswell, but they themselves have not revealed what they paid for Bale.

Actually it is revealed which was reported as 92.5 mill euros. The problem here is Barca can not pay Neymar a 40 mill euros as transfer fee, that is obvious case of tax fraud, because transfer fee has no tax while wage has 50 % tax in Spain.

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