F1 2013 Season

B-Mac MUFC wrote:how genius does Hamilton look for leaving McLaren tho

for the money they said

the man knew he was on a sinking ship

Ross Brawn gonna get Hamilton that Schumacher dominance at Mercedes

think he just got fed up with the mclaren being a bit inconsistent, plus maybe he felt he was being treated like a home kid... so he wanted to try something new.

but never ever underestimate the woking team... they have got best facility... in fact i would say mclaren's got great talent... its just that they made a bad decision trying to design a car thinking they would get more development areas to improve on , cus last year's car by the end of the race mclaren had faster than red bull car ... and they thought they didnt have enough room to improve on...

and ... mercedes story is quite intriguing because i guess its like football where top club when they under perform gets butchered by media. same with mercedes their results were so poor.. so we managed to upgrade our windtunnel, kicked out our aerodynamicist and got one from lotus last year (mike elliot) then we managed to recruit Aldo costa, i dont think there is a better mechanical engineer than aldo costa lol and ferrari thought he was the reason why ferrari was so poor in recent years and got rid of him as a scapegoat...

that was the best thing ever to happen for mercedes... current car the chassis and mechanical design is all the work of aldo costa. so we got new aero guy, new chassis and mechanical head, we got Paddy lowe, whose expertise is on electrical stuffs as well as having experience overseeing and approving entire design that they did in R&D at mclaren.

its interesting... current car as ross brawn announced recently is all from now until the end of the season is looked by paddy lowe, so that aldo costa can start working on new project for next year, he already has... because next year rule is huge!!! so huge!! i mean u will see car quite different.. as well as new engines thats going to change the performance

interestingly geoff willis our .. R&D head is already working on 2015 car.. mercedes is already looking in the future while developing current car at good pace

B-Mac MUFC wrote:

Butt wrote:

B-Mac MUFC wrote:
Ross Brawn gonna get Hamilton that Schumacher dominance at Mercedes

You have to come close to Vettel first, who looks like is gonna get 4 in a row

Mercedes are out qualifying Red Bulls now....Vettel has had the best car for years it has been no contest, Mercedes has finally figured it out and closed the gap and you are seeing the results.

good updates, plus change in tires from steel to kevlar belt, plus merc better understanding of tires, they are constantly bringing updates and changes in suspension geometry, heat transfer effects .. so its better now.

but i think red bull still are much much better i guess.. plus things couldnt be more better because tires has gone back to some compounds from 2012..

Butt wrote:

B-Mac MUFC wrote:
Ross Brawn gonna get Hamilton that Schumacher dominance at Mercedes

You have to come close to Vettel first, who looks like is gonna get 4 in a row

i would say its too early for merc right now... i dont see lewis competiting for drivers championship just yet... maybe in constructors..

if merc continue to develop this car at this rate.. maybe... but everyone is focusing on next year's car... merc's resources are already on next year's car.. its going to be bit hard for them.

thankfully merc has been constantly testing their passive DDRS for races like Spa and Monza.. so hopefully it might give them some edge if they manage to tune them exactly to their liking..

from singapore, japan its going to be really tough because red bull loves fast corner tracks.. merc the opposite..

lotus is impressive... but i think only problem why lotus performance is up and down is maybe their financial management.. i was hearing rumours that last year they didnt have enough budget to develop cars at some point... and this year there were rumours that infiniti bought some stakes of the team....

and recently raikkonen was unhappy because he wasn't paid salary in time.. and also last year.. that explains..

and grosjean... lotus would be otherwise easily both drivers and constructors contenders...

thanks guys for talking about f1... no one does more frequently lol cmon' guys!! lol   enlighten this thread a bit more!

JespSwe wrote:i m not liking this season how much Pirelli, FIA and FOM has manage to make a royal mess....

no teams has been able to absolutely exploit their potential of their car... its all tires tires tires all season upto this point. i mean british gp was just horrendous... and the fact that pirelli didnt even f..kin had guts to fully admit their mistake .. comes out and says tires failures happened because oh teams didn't apply their tires according to our recommendation... like chambers, tires pressures, swapping tires from left to right... i mean.. that has been happening since decade!!! and suddenly pirelli halts all of that... rubbish!

everyone loves f1 because everyone likes to see racing cars, racing drives and team pushing things to limit, to absolute best... it has happened ever since F1 ever started... pirelli has made things super conservative and boring... i mean really boring...

If you followed the interviews with the Pirelli boss, you might have noticed it is no way Pirelli's fault. You have to thank Bernie for the mess and Bernie alone. The Pirelli guy said they'd have no problems to create a tire that would last a season, but it was the demand of Bernie Ecclestone that they built a tire that breaks down after only a certain percentage of one race. As a matter of fact, Pirelli themselves are not really happy about that situation as it damages their reputation and rumours say they threatened to leave F1 if they weren't allowed to remedy the situation at least a little bit.

JespSwe wrote:lol if alonso were to drive current vettel car.. he would butcher everyone!

I wouldn't be so sure about this - but not because I think Alonso is worse than Vettel, but because the Red Bull has been designed by Newey with Vettel's input about how he likes the car to behave for years now.

rwo power wrote:

JespSwe wrote:i m not liking this season how much Pirelli, FIA and FOM has manage to make a royal mess....

no teams has been able to absolutely exploit their potential of their car... its all tires tires tires all season upto this point. i mean british gp was just horrendous... and the fact that pirelli didnt even f..kin had guts to fully admit their mistake .. comes out and says tires failures happened because oh teams didn't apply their tires according to our recommendation... like chambers, tires pressures, swapping tires from left to right... i mean.. that has been happening since decade!!! and suddenly pirelli halts all of that... rubbish!

everyone loves f1 because everyone likes to see racing cars, racing drives and team pushing things to limit, to absolute best... it has happened ever since F1 ever started... pirelli has made things super conservative and boring... i mean really boring...

If you followed the interviews with the Pirelli boss, you might have noticed it is no way Pirelli's fault. You have to thank Bernie for the mess and Bernie alone. The Pirelli guy said they'd have no problems to create a tire that would last a season, but it was the demand of Bernie Ecclestone that they built a tire that breaks down after only a certain percentage of one race. As a matter of fact, Pirelli themselves are not really happy about that situation as it damages their reputation and rumours say they threatened to leave F1 if they weren't allowed to remedy the situation at least a little bit.

JespSwe wrote:lol if alonso were to drive current vettel car.. he would butcher everyone!

I wouldn't be so sure about this - but not because I think Alonso is worse than Vettel, but because the Red Bull has been designed by Newey with Vettel's input about how he likes the car to behave for years now.

hemberly always cover pirelli's a.. i am not surprised. its pirelli's fault. when tire failed... paul says ok first its derby thats causing tire failure.. then says ok teams didnt follow our recommendation... what a b.s. for a decade of watching races... teams do that all the time... changing pressures.. changing chambers swaps tires... its pirelli who halts all of that...

thats what i am saying... bernie is FOM... FOM is owned by CVC .. i am aware that FOM demanded tire spectacle.. what amazes me is that even pirelli cant explain the tire nature.. they always said ok in some races tires should be lasting according to our expectations.. then something else happens...

well, it doesnt matter.. drivers input counts a little they can change that during the season. newey is the only reason why vettel is easily winning championships...

i dont think alonso hamilton raikkonen rosberg had same privileges...

everytime pirelli changes tires now and then.. do u know how much that costs teams??? they have to rethink everything.. even for next year.. they have to spend time and resources analyzing data again... thats llot of resources and money wasted and time too.. just for f.. kin tires..

i would be so happy if pirelli left.. michelin is bidding in 2015.. according to rumours, if thats the case, paul hemberly said they will leave.

and yes.. politics doesnt help the cause either.. thats why FIA, FOM should just sht the f. .k up lol

JespSwe wrote:hemberly always cover pirelli's a.. i am not surprised. its pirelli's fault. when tire failed... paul says ok first its derby thats causing tire failure.. then says ok teams didnt follow our recommendation... what a b.s. for a decade of watching races... teams do that all the time... changing pressures.. changing chambers swaps tires... its pirelli who halts all of that...  

Well, the problem is that the current specifications just make the tires so fragile that these changes can affect them. If Bernie would allow Pirelli to build a durable tire, the teams could play around the specs as before. The problem is - they are just not allowed to thanks to Bernie. I think Michelin, Goodyear and the like thank the Gods that they are out of this circus.

JespSwe wrote:thats what i am saying... bernie is FOM... FOM is owned by CVC .. i am aware that FOM demanded tire spectacle.. what amazes me is that even pirelli cant explain the tire nature.. they always said ok in some races tires should be lasting according to our expectations.. then something else happens...

Well, Bernie faxes a court trial in Germany, so it is very much possible he has to retire from F1 as companies like Mercedes otherwise might just pull out of F1 if he gets convicted and stays.

JespSwe wrote:well, it doesnt matter.. drivers input counts a little they can change that during the season. newey is the only reason why vettel is easily winning championships...
i dont think alonso hamilton raikkonen rosberg had same privileges...

I think driver input is very important for the car development. I'm totally no fan of Hamilton, but as you can see with McLaren and Mercedes in this season, he seems to have quite an influence on how the car is set up and how competitive it becomes.

With Michael Schumacher at Ferrari it was the same - in the last years they only were a dominant combination while he was there.

Just like that I think the synergy between Newey and Vettel is the real secret and not Adrian Newey alone. I mean, Newey was at Red Bull before Seb got there, but they only really became dominant with Seb on board.

rwo power wrote:

JespSwe wrote:hemberly always cover pirelli's a.. i am not surprised. its pirelli's fault. when tire failed... paul says ok first its derby thats causing tire failure.. then says ok teams didnt follow our recommendation... what a b.s. for a decade of watching races... teams do that all the time... changing pressures.. changing chambers swaps tires... its pirelli who halts all of that...  

Well, the problem is that the current specifications just make the tires so fragile that these changes can affect them. If Bernie would allow Pirelli to build a durable tire, the teams could play around the specs as before. The problem is - they are just not allowed to thanks to Bernie. I think Michelin, Goodyear and the like thank the Gods that they are out of this circus.

JespSwe wrote:thats what i am saying... bernie is FOM... FOM is owned by CVC .. i am aware that FOM demanded tire spectacle.. what amazes me is that even pirelli cant explain the tire nature.. they always said ok in some races tires should be lasting according to our expectations.. then something else happens...

Well, Bernie faxes a court trial in Germany, so it is very much possible he has to retire from F1 as companies like Mercedes otherwise might just pull out of F1 if he gets convicted and stays.

JespSwe wrote:well, it doesnt matter.. drivers input counts a little they can change that during the season. newey is the only reason why vettel is easily winning championships...
i dont think alonso hamilton raikkonen rosberg had same privileges...

I think driver input is very important for the car development. I'm totally no fan of Hamilton, but as you can see with McLaren and Mercedes in this season, he seems to have quite an influence on how the car is set up and how competitive it becomes.

With Michael Schumacher at Ferrari it was the same - in the last years they only were a dominant combination while he was there.

Just like that I think the synergy between Newey and Vettel is the real secret and not Adrian Newey alone. I mean, Newey was at Red Bull before Seb got there, but they only really became dominant with Seb on board.

oh god... are you trying to suggest me that the reason why merc is stronger now and mclaren is weak because of hamilton's input?

ok schumi dominance at ferrari was sure he was damn good driver but its mostly because of ferrari's more than half of billion of budget spending more than 700 staffs.. unlimited testing.. fact that there were two different tires manufacturers.. michelin and bridgestone... and bridgestone was damn good in tire durability and grip. and ofcourse rory bryne, aldo costa, nicolas tombazis, ross brawn.. and todt looking everything as principal.

oh god... are u serious... i have been watching every race... u know why red bull was so weak before right????

oh god!!

back then red bull had just acquired newey.. and he was overhauling the staffs.. and bringing new ones... ok give u and exmaple.. they got rid of people like i forgot a greek aerodynamicists there... and brought peter prodomou from mclaren... they also acquired windtunnel used by concorde.. and was in progress of upgrading CFDs and windtunnel...

everyone talks about newey.. sure newey is genius. he is the biggest reason.. but peter prodomou is also a reason why red bull is so damn good! under him... as senior aerodynamicist mclaren won a lot ... prodomou has got aero degree from i think imperial college he was personal handpick from newey..

plus red bull was recruiting new people... and there is a matter of renault's unreliability engine problems if u watched every race every practice in 2006-2007 season... they had huge problems in fact ...

ok .. red bull's junior team torro rosso was like a test team for them.. because torro rosso was using same chassis and engineering technology.. from red bull.. and torro rosso had reliable engine of ferrari.. hence vettel was able to get more consistent result... while red bull was suffering renault engine problems..

believe me or not upto you... everyone says.. vettel outperformed that torro rosso... lol.. it was combination... vettel was great i admit.. but u dont underestimate the fact that torro rosso got resources from red bull as well as reliable engine from ferrari..

newey is a big factor why red bull is winning but also cus now red bull are not in FOTA.. cus they had friction with merc and ferrari.. and now they are at free will to use how much money or staffs... red bulls got estimated of 650 staffs.... and they can spend whatever they want..

why do u think red bull can bring upgrades so fast every weekend...

JespSwe wrote:oh god... are you trying to suggest me that the reason why merc is stronger now and mclaren is weak because of hamilton's input?

I'm pretty sure this is one factor in that equation, yes. F1 is a team sport and each member of a team adds to success or failure. There is a lot of psychology involved, too - if a driver has a good relationship with the engineers and mechanics that are assigned to him, I'm pretty sure they will work even som percents better and faster than when they would have been assigned to a driver where the chemistry isn't so good. And this doesn't mean this would be a conscious thing. They would never sabotage their driver, but I'm petty sure if the chemistry doesn't work there might be mishaps that are caused by unconscious slips of concentration and the like.

JespSwe wrote:ok schumi dominance at ferrari was sure he was damn good driver but its mostly because of ferrari's more than half of billion of budget spending more than 700 staffs.. unlimited testing.. fact that there were two different tires manufacturers.. michelin and bridgestone... and bridgestone was damn good in tire durability and grip. and ofcourse rory bryne, aldo costa, nicolas tombazis, ross brawn.. and todt looking everything as principal.

And still Michael Schumacher was so driven that he stayed long hours after his normal work hours to give input, to ask the mechanics questions etc. By the way, when Pirelli first was announced as tire manufacturer, of the drivers it was only Sebastian Vettel who visited the factory and let the engineers there show him around etc. Dunno how much coverage you get at your place about the stuff beyond the races, but the German media are pretty thorough in that respect.

JespSwe wrote:oh god... are u serious... i have been watching every race... u know why red bull was so weak before right????

Well, please enlighten me instead calling out to god

Oh, I just saw you did post that afterwards. Thank you. I have to read it now!

Well, as I mentioned before, too - F1 is a team sport and of course Red Bull have a great technical staff, but IMO the driver is a very important cog in the wheel for the development, too. I think one can not say it is only the chief designer etc - they need to get proper feedback, too, and it looks as if some drivers are better to provide that input than others.

hamilton has sure improved merc massively.. in terms of results... but car development???

u thank aldo costa, mike elliot, geoff willis for that... and now paddy lowe has joined the team... he is recently assigned by ross to see everything on the car until the end of the season so that aldo can now look forward to solely focus on next year car.

i think i explained last time too.. drivers does improve the car.. drivers drive if they are not happy with anything.. they report to race engineers.. i think in the case of hamilton.. he reports to his race engineer (i forgot his name) then ham's race engineer will analyze data talk to hamilton what he wants.. and his race engineer will report to chief race engineer andrew shovlin.. shovlin has communication with designers, aerodynamicists, and other development people... how they can improve car on hamilton's or nico's liking..

hamilton can improve the car by talking to his race engineers they analyse data, do homework, and change the setups, ride heights, front wings, suspensions, gear ratios, you name it...
hamilton doesnt do that..he just says what he wants! what he expects.. technically everything is in the hands of engineers

lol i know vettel's visit at pirelli's factory... vettel visit to the factory doesnt contribute anything to their knowledge in tire performance.

i havent denied that drivers input counts... their input will fix their setup issues... in development of car..?? not to the extend that suddenly driver will demand something and by next race the car goes like rocketship..

otherwise alonso will be winning championships every year.

if newey wasnt there.... or peter prodomou... i am confident that vettel will leave red bull..

and btw.. as for hamiton's input being reason why merc is good now...

well this chassis was designed mid-season...last year.. aldo was working on this project..

Well, but to say what he wants and how things feel etc is an important part of development, too. Development is not just the guys with the CAD systems or the tools - development also means giving feedback.

I think we are probably just using the term "development" differently, but in the end actually mean the same: You need a driver who can clearly formulate what he needs and how the car behaves so that the engineers get the proper input.

E.G: testing a program and reporting the bugs to a programmer is a very important part of software development, too. If you don't have someone who can explain where exactly what problem shows up and under which conditions, a programmer couldn't develop proper software easily either. I mean compare: User1: "The program is sh*t, it crashes always!" or User2: "Well, if I use the search function, the field XY seems to have a problem depending on whether you enter an integer value or a character string - if I enter a character string, the search causes an exception fault."

rwo power wrote:Well, but to say what he wants and how things feel etc is an important part of development, too. Development is not just the guys with the CAD systems or the tools - development also means giving feedback.

I think we are probably just using the term "development" differently, but in the end actually mean the same: You need a driver who can clearly formulate what he needs and how the car behaves so that the engineers get the proper input.

E.G: testing a program and reporting the bugs to a programmer is a very important part of software development, too. If you don't have someone who can explain where exactly what problem shows up and under which conditions, a programmer couldn't develop proper software easily either.

giving feedbacks to improve the car by drivers... i havent denied it mate..
development is all planned by engineers designers aerodynamicists... not race drivers... they get feedback.. undeniably yes... development is decided by all the brains behind the car.

i wished drivers had developed a car to the point they give all the scientific ideas where to design and all lol, that would have been cool.

vettel or any drivers input will improve driveability, and setups and such... and that contributes to performance to some extent.. in the end of the day... u still need right people...

but i dont think vettel's input is one of the sole reason why red bull is good though...

BTW, I just added an example to the software thingy to make my point a bit more elaborately ^^

I'm pretty sure there are some drivers who just have more insight in the technical part than others and depending on that, it is easier or more difficult for the engineers to improve the cars.

rwo power wrote:BTW, I just added an example to the software thingy to make my point a bit more elaborately ^^

I'm pretty sure there are some drivers who just have more insight in the technical part than others and depending on that, it is easier or more difficult for the engineers to improve the cars.

yes.. vettel is good on grip, tire pressures, well its got lot to do with again... knowing setups.. but not aerodynamics, not mechanical changes.. i wished though i mean that would be just awesome
in terms of driving vettel is good in details of driving... that details smallest of details is one of the reason why is he is good

i mean if vettel was great in like technical stuffs like aerodnaymics and all well he can retire and be engineer

another example is nico rosberg... nico rosberg was so good with his academics... he was offered to study aeronautics in Imperial College London, which is one of the best engineering colleges.. and some of the best engineers ... like Nicolas Tombazis (ferrari's current designer and chief aerodynamicist) graduated from there.
nico is the only wiliams drivers to date to score highest score in technical aptitude test.

but sadly i wished nico's input might have improved their season drastically last year or year before.

nico's race engineer said he was amazed when he hears how much nico's knows about technical knowledge of f1 cars behavior.. well that doesnt mean his put will lead to development in car and mercedes will win races... well it dpends on so many factors... drivers input perhaps is like not that huge factors... drivers drive, whatever THEY DO ON TRACK, PRACTICE, RACE DAYS makes huge different

drivers do their job at track... rest lies mostly in the hands of ... teams...

sorry we got on wrong foot..

well... i am gonna say that i like drivers though who would make huge difference with their drives, their feel what changes will make the car better in practices and race days.. thats why likes of hamilton, vettel, alonso, raikkonen makes difference in race days

their input in making changes in car setup in that weekend massively helps...

unfortunately look at ferrari... they had wind tunnel problems for year and half now they are relying on toyota's windtunnel...

alonso has been dying for changes in his car... i mean his input whatever he is doing... is getting perhaps getting results but they arent getting podium anymore... alonso dropped from 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th by now...

Well, it looks that we are actually pretty much of a similar opinion, we just use the terms somewhat differently. For you "development" is practically only the hardware stuff, while for me "development" means the "soft stuff" like giving proper feedback, too.

rwo power wrote:Well, it looks that we are actually pretty much of a similar opinion, we just use the terms somewhat differently. For you "development" is practically only the hardware stuff, while for me "development" means the "soft stuff" like giving proper feedback, too.

i would say drivers can say  or demands like ok, i want more downforce, i want more straightline speed.. i want stable rear, how can we improve driveability, lets say.. by changing powersteering, or lets say changing set ups, changing ride heights, adding less/more front wings to make car more oversteer understeer... , changing tire pressures, chambers..., there are so many stuffs u can do on track.

whatever changes they make , results, datas... all goes to race engineers, to analysts, to people like aerodynamicists or designers, and they will check study research and decide on whether their development and research on CFDs and windtunnel got their results on track and from then on how further they can improve.

but yes u still need top drivers to get results after all. and u need right people. but i guess drivers input ok i would say they definitely helps in development of next year cars... but not to the extent that drivers input will change say ok podium winning car next year would become race winning cars.

red bull always comes with amazing innovations... they are great in exploiting rules to limit, they are great in bringing updates, they have great engineering talent and they got endless money and resources.

all that ...---------- - mr adrian newey, peter prodoumou and their people...not necessarily.. vettels input... that they will be like winning 8 races a year will be because of vettel's input..smallest of contribution... maybe his driving ability has more contribution than his input...

but i would love to see how alonso and vettel fares at that team... i mean that would be just great because they will both have great rivalry.. but sadly we will have boring races... everytime red bull will probably be like 1-2 and by half a season they will probably rap up titles... hehehehe

I don't really disagree with you, maybe I just consider the driver influence somewhat higher, but I guess that is just a matter of opinion and not really measurable anyway.

Oh, by the way - do you know the website  http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk ?

They have full transcripts of the team radio of several GPs there. That's really fascinating:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/11/2013-german-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/

rwo power wrote:I don't really disagree with you, maybe I just consider the driver influence somewhat higher, but I guess that is just a matter of opinion and not really measurable anyway.

Oh, by the way - do you know the website  http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk ?

They have full transcripts of the team radio of several GPs there. That's really fascinating:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/11/2013-german-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/

haha the quotes from Button on the victory lap

Yeah the Caterhams absolutely screwed us. Absolutely screwed us. I’m glad they fought well for their 19th position. Very impressive.